The totally ridiculous Jagar Tharn theory!, Warning: May damage your brains. Options

[jack cloudy]

Ok, so I've been thinking. Now this theory is way out, no holds barred making things up. Anyway, here's the thing.

Could Jagar Tharn be the result of a multi-generational plan that involves conscious and perhaps forced cross-breeding?

Clues.

1: Symmachus called him 'part Dunmer, part Altmer and part who knows what. Said to be born to a Bosmer woman'. Well, he didn't say it literally that way perhaps, but he did say it. In 'The Real Barenziah'. Ok, so that's Dunmer, Altmer and Bosmer, three different races. Oh, and the potential for another race 'X'.

2:Tharnie wasn't just any Dunmer. He was descended from some sort of royal Dunmer family or somesuch. In any case, according to Symmachus (again), only people of that line could open the seal on the Staff of Chaos. Cross-breeding between commoners is all fine and dandy, but nobles don't do that stuff without a very good reason. Politics and marriage go hand-in-hand. And you don't really need a political marriage when the Altmer live on a bunch of islands on the other end of the continent. And a political marriage with a Bosmer? Oh c'mon, as if a Dunmer noble would ever even bring it up in the form of a joke. One of those cannibalistic, backward, stupid, treehuggers married to a Dunmer of the finest blood? No way! (Note: I love Bosmer, just giving the Dunmer view on them.)

3: Altmer and Dunmer nobles. Something tells me that at least these two would preferably avoid any cross-breeding, politics or not. I mean, Dunmer (especially nobles) tend to be traditional and 'Outlander=N'Wah'. Altmer...well, they're Altmer. I think that's pretty obvious. I don't know about the Bosmer view on cross-breeding but it should be obvious by now, that Tharn's multi-racial blood is very unlikely to have occured through mere coincidence.

4: Apart from having multiple races in his make-up, including some noble, Tharn is also a mage of phenomenal power. Get this, he conjured enough Daedra (Well, Arena mentions Demons, but I think that Demons became Daedra later on) to replace a large portion of the palace guard. Now going through reasonable estimates, I'd say it's probably at least a couple of dozen. And we're not just talking short-term conjuration, but long-term which I think is a lot harder.

The lower limit is a few hours. Tharnie could easily rotate demons that are off-shift with new ones cause after all, if he can shapeshift one, he can shapeshift another to look exactly the same. (doesn't help, cause the new guy would still be draining his Magicka) The upper limit is the entire period where he was in control.

In-game, summoning for more than a minute or two is pretty hard even with just one Daedra. This could be chalked up to game balancing and have the in-universe time limit extended to like twenty minutes, but that still pales in comparison to what Tharn did. Unless he bound them to an object through enchantment. Possible, but still pretty high level.

Oh, and after the conjuration, we get the illusion. That was pretty badass and good enough to fool just about everyone. Once again, long-term and apparently good enough to fool Uriel's wife (I'm going off on a wild guess and assume that the royal couple slept in the same room, in the same bed), so I guess he only removed it while on the toilet and stuff. (Yeah yeah, Barenziah suddenly went with the whole: "But I'm a mage myself, so I looked right through cause any mage can look through it and I'm that awesome and all praise the queen!" But seriously, do you think that everyone at the bloody Arcane University is a freaking amateur? They freaking live in the same bloody city, you can't tell me not a single mage from there ever paid a visit to the palace.)

5: Since Tharn is so powerful yet no one had really heard of him before he became Battlemage, he didn't have that much access to good learning facilities. So it is possible that most of it was more raw Magicka burning rather than refined skill, though I bet he refined it a bit over the years and became more efficient. So his Magicka pool (considering everything he had running all at once) must have been enormous, even by Altmeri standards. How do you get that if you're just a normal person?

Conclusion: Tharn has a mixture of blood that is at least highly unusual and otherwise really convenient (Staff of Chaos), he had insane powers and all, so I think that he was not just a natural at it. He was a deliberately bred natural. Considering the rumours of the Altmer 'blood-purity', combined with their resentment over being governed by 'one of the lesser races', I point the tall goldskins as the culprit. Somewhere, there might have been an Altmer who decided that blood-purity meant "returning to the original Aldmer blood by reuniting all the current forms of mer. Oh, and let's topple the Empire with totally badass skills and an unattainable artefact of immense power while we're at it. That will teach them a lesson."


PS: As I said, totally ridiculous. But I just couldn't miss the opportunity to throw my madness onto the boards.

[treydog]

This actually makes sense. Which either means I am equally warped or else that you are onto something... We won't say just which is more likely.

[canis216]

My thoughts:

1) The Bosmer mother could have been a servant. Jagar Tharn, illegitimate child... kind of appropriate. Note also that to some degree the conflict between Tiber's empire and Morrowind could have scattered some families of noble lineage to the wind, so just about anything could have happened.

2) Re: Magical ability of the Tharnatos, long-lasting summonings would come from a pact with the responsible daedric lord, and Tharn was conspiring with Mehrunes Dagon. Rather makes sense that old Mehrunes would lend some help to his mortal collaborator. "Yo, Mehrunes! Damn Champion just slew five more minions. Could use some help here..."

3) I'll concede that his ability with illusion and magic in general is impressive... how old is Tharn? He might be older than meets the eye, 'specially with his Altmer blood. That would leave a lot more time for learning his dastardly tricks. He could have also bargained with daedra. 'Course, here is where conspiracy could explain a lot.

However, there was little risk of being sussed out by Uriel's wife. See this.

4) Magical artifacts aside from the SoC?

5) Just for kicks, here is another fun Jagar Tharn conspiracy theory. He did love his conspiracies.

This post has been edited by canis216: Apr 5 2008, 07:05 PM

[jack cloudy]

Hmm, valid points. The Tiber invasion might have indeed scattered some noble family-lines, but I still think that it is one heck of a coincidence.

Getting help from Mehrunes makes perfect sense. Why work to get your conjurations if you can just send in some straight from Oblivion. (Err, wait, that is summoning.) Anyway, the Staff of Chaos' big power was that it could open rips between the planes, right? In other words, the damn thing is a portable Oblivion Gate!

His age is up for grabs so I'll concede that he may have had plenty of time to train. And thanks for pointing out Uriel's bad relation with his wife. Gosh, I wonder how come he never noticed a thing till after the marriage. On the other hand, I do remember reading something somewhere (no idea where) about Uriel's wife dying a few years after the Simulacrum, with stress over noticing that her husband had been replaced by someone else for ten years cited as a mayor reason. Ah well.

I'm not too sure what you mean by other artefacts. Care to clarify?

And finally, Bethsoft always gives me a 404 error when I try to get there. So I would appreciate it if you could tell me what conspiracy was being brought up there. Or copy and paste it, that would work.

[canis216]

The original post reads:

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I don't beleive this has ever been discussed before, but in the book "Words and Philosophy" we read about Calaxes, another one of the Emperor's honoured user Sons, who gets assasinated by the Imperial Guard, after rumors of a Theocratic Uprising that he may, or may not be planning. The date of his assasination is the year 3E 398, a year before the Eternal Champion kicks Jagar Tharn all the way back to when Anu and Padomay were the same thing. Now, while Calaxes could not of been Jagar Tharn's Child (because he wasn't in power long enough), it was still him that had Calaxes assasinated, but as the text (Words and Philosophy again) seems to indicate it was during the time of Jagar Tharn's Imposter-Rule that he got into the position of Archbishop (by just being the Emperor's honoured user son).

Now, this is confusing, because none of the other Emperor's Sons made any recorded attempt at overthrowing Jagar Tharn (who they would of thought was just their father out of his mind), and they could of gotten a larger supportbase from the population than Calaxes (because, I highly doubt that even in Cyrodiil, a proposed Theocratic rule would of gone down well with public opinion), however this could be due to the posible double-gangers put in place by Jagar Tharn (or atleast the rumors from morrowind seemed to indicate).


So, what I'm wondering is if Jagar Tharn, fearing revolution and the provinces breaking off, tryed the tactic of "making-up" a fake honoured user-Heir, gave him some power in the church, and then got his advisors to put into his head ideas of Theocratical Revolution, and from there all Jagar Tharn would have to do is to kill this made-up identity of Calaxes Septim, when the rumors of his uprising spread just enough to scare the people; from which could 1) put fear in the supporters of Calaxes 2) put hope and enthusiasm into the people of Cyrodiil, to reassure them that he was a good leader.


So, how well does this Theory go down?

And I was just grasping at straws with the magical artifacts. I mean, he was the freaking Imperial Battlemage. You'd think that he might have access to some. They'd augment his power.

This post has been edited by canis216: Apr 6 2008, 12:52 AM