Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 04:04 AM

Since we started discussing it in the Role-Playing Forum, the idea occurred to Elizabeth Hollow me to have a dedicated thread where any could go too to ask questions relating to Lore in general.

Now, I don't want this to be TES-exclusive as Bethesda has expanded their repertoire a bit, so I invite others who are indeed masters of their respective domains to jump in and answer the many subjects I will not be able too.

To keep it simple, I think a simple format of:

A.) Ask question.

B.)Loremaster quote question and answer, providing links if necessary as others may wish to learn of it in greater detail.

C.)Where it can be avoided, no needless quote pyramids. Okay, okay that's a personal thing...but still: So much quotations!! Though I understand, sometimes your on a phone and can't really do the detailed snipping.

Now these are only guidelines as I see it. Maybe you have a better idea, and should go with that.

Now, my 'expertise' is limited to the The Elder Scrolls Series, and despite my bragging, there are definitely maybe somethings I don't know, but may be able to point in the right direction.


Alright, lets light this candle! Who gets to ask the first question?

Posted by: SubRosa Jul 31 2013, 05:05 AM

Is Talos so powerful, that he can make a rock so big that even he cannot lift it?

Sorry I could not resist. I'll come back sometime with a real question/proposition.

Hey, how about Talos himself. We all have heard that Tiber Septim/Talos/Hjalti Earlybeard became a god. But I cannot ever recall seeing anything in the ES lore that describes - in detail - how? The most I have ever seen anyone say is that he somehow combined with Ysmir and Zurin Arctus in some sort of Mythic Critical Mass. Or that he "walked the walk" i.e. acted enough like Lorkhan that he replaced Lorkhan in the mythic.

But I have never seen anyone describe how you can combine yourself with two others to make yourself a god. Do you all jump into a blender at the same time? Step under a big falling rock that squishes you all together? Do a bunch of ogres all grab a leg or an arm and shove you all together in a big scrum? How come everyone doesn't combine themselves into gods? How come everyone doesn't just pretend to be a god so they can replace them and have uber powers?

Posted by: mALX Jul 31 2013, 05:05 AM

Yes, what ever happened to Barenziah's baby that was fathered by Jagar Tharn? She was 6 months pregnant with it when they left Cyrodiil to return to High Rock. Where is Tharn's son and heir?

Posted by: ThatSkyrimGuy Jul 31 2013, 05:22 AM

Classic George Carlin...."Heavy Mystery Time"...

Posted by: ghastley Jul 31 2013, 06:04 AM

I think the answer is no. It wasn't Jagar Tharn's. It was "Nightingale's" - see the Skyrim stuff about them.

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 06:14 AM

enantiomorph

1. Mirror image, form related to another as an object is to its image in a mirror.
2. Either of a pair of crystals that are mirror images of each other, and are optically active.

The enantiomorph is Lorkhan, with many, many avatars. Despite the fact that none of them necessarily know that the other one is also an Avatar, or that they are as well.




Talos, aka Tiber Septim didn't 'apotheosize' so much as realized his true identity. When he combined with the other embodiments, they mixed together for the same reason pouring water into water becomes inseparable.

As far as 'walking like them, until you become like them' doesn't necessarily mean you get their power.

For example the more pie you eat, the more you are in tune with gravity. By walking a certain way, you become more in tune with that sphere, rather than taking on their powers. Eating the pie doesn't make other things gravitate to you, per se, you simply become part of it that much more.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/michael-kirkbrides-texts



http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Karliah

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Nightingales_Vol._2

Posted by: mALX Jul 31 2013, 06:41 AM

The Skyrim account changes history though. The Nightingale left her without mating her. She didn't become pregnant till during the Imperial Simulacrum; and that was most definitely Jagar Tharn. He was (then) assumed to be the Nightingale who tricked her into giving him access to the Staff of Chaos.

The Skrim account on Barenziah has jumbled her history to suit their storyline for the Nightingales, but before Skyrim came out the history and dates were clear on it.

Posted by: SubRosa Jul 31 2013, 05:29 PM

Yes, I have heard all of that before. I am asking for details, not for generalities. Again, how do you 'pour' three people into one another? This is what I have never seen an answer to in the lore. Did TiberTalosHjalti and Ysmir, and Zurin jump into a big blender? Do you dump them all into a big copper bowl and mix them with a giant wooden spoon? These three were together for years, so why wasn't there just a flash of photons being released the first time they stepped within x amount of feet with one another and suddenly they fused like hydrogen atoms into helium? Why did it not happen until years later and Tiber's death? I suspect that whoever wrote it (Kirkbride or whoever) was suddenly possessed by JJ Abrams and thought "We don't need to put any thought into it, lets just be weird, people think that's cool!"

But there is also a problem with the "alike mixes together" theory. A molecule of H20 that sits in a glass with another does not fuse with it into a new molecule, as Tiber/Zurin/Ysmir did. They are just molecules of H20 sitting next to one another. Or following the fusion example more closely, hydrogen atoms are exactly alike. I can throw a bunch of them together and they do not suddenly fuse into helium. It takes an outside force like gravity and the heat generated by the friction of said atoms being pushed together to exert such influence over them that fusion takes place. So what was the gravity/friction/heat that fused the three men into a god? I would have no problem with there being such an agency or simply natural act of physics. The issue of them being together for years and nothing cosmic happening begs for this to be the case. But I have never seen an answer to what is the catalyst written anywhere in Bethesda's games. I am asking for Oz to step out from behind the curtain.

I would have an easier time believing he somehow manipulated the Numidium and made himself a god, like the Tribunal and Mannimarco did. But boy, has that dead horse been whipped enough by now. Or as some people say that he achieved CHIMP, realized that reality was a dream and ascended to cosmic primateness. But both of these explanations make the whole triple fusion theory of Tiber/Ysmir/Zurin unnecessary and redundant. So then there is no reason to have it in the first place.

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 06:02 PM

True. Bethesda often does that. Otherwise, I am not certain. In TES V 'lore' it was Dralsi Indoril with Karliah being her Granddaughter.

But also keep in mind how they had two different versions of Barenziah as well.

According to http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Real_Barenziah,_Book_V he wasn't Nightingale either. She saw him and Uriel Septim in a Vision when she was before Jagar Tharn in the Imperial Palace. She also had a suspicion:



Something which Symmachus shrugged off as Jagar Tharn didn't have 'human blood' in his ancestry.

But, that doesn't take into account the power of Illusion spells which is heavily intimated that she was under a 'Charm' spell, and impersonating the Emperor, he certainly was more than capable.

But, this version was written by http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Plitinius_Mero whom the Nerevarine meets in the expansion 'Tribunal' for MW. Any information he would have learned and uncovered was still subject to Barenziah's manipulations. Though she did take him under her wing to protect him from the Imperial Family.

So it would appear the Dev's intentionally left it ambiguous to let the players draw their own conclusions, which they are more or less famous for. Disappearance of the Dwarves and the multiple possibilities for it being among those.

But, yes I know what happened to the Dwarves.

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 06:21 PM

You're thinking in misguided terms. They were never separate to begin with.



Much like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) may appear to be an entire forest of different trees, they reach far below into the ground with a single unifying aspect. Each of these trees has been tested and they are all genetically identical. Much the same for Lorkhan's Avatar's and http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shezzarines-lorkhan-underking-connections

Lorkhan and his avatars 'poke' through the game reality and fulfill roles. Kind of like the Movie K-Pax with Kevin Spacey and his reply as to why he appeared human:



Otherwise, I don't think it's been addressed in that particular fashion. So, I'm at a loss to know how to explain it otherwise, it is ultimately, just a game and the breadth of our scientific knowledge most likely would not be applied to all of it's concepts.

Posted by: mALX Jul 31 2013, 06:26 PM

Much better answer, because the Skyrim version flies in the face of history and alters the story to suit its own self. I like that you included charm in the spell and not just illusion; that piqued my interest and I'm sure you are right about it.

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 06:36 PM

Maybe.

I've tried to do some deeper delving, I just don't think it was ever addressed in official or unofficial lore.

The Skyrim version appears to be the only continuation to the story. And even 'could' be true. It may be a revelation that they had in mind years ago rather than outright butchering.

Posted by: SubRosa Jul 31 2013, 07:13 PM

If they were never separate to begin with, then why were they walking around as 3 separate people until suddenly they combined into one? Why are they in three different places in the list above, with three different names? Why don't three of the tree trunks in Pando suddenly all grow together into a single tree trunk, and become something else that is not a tree trunk? Because that is what happened to Tiber/Zurin/Ysmir. They ceased to exist as separate tree trunks with a similar root system, and joined together into something that is not a tree trunk. Something that replaced all of the other tree trunks, and the rest of the root system.

That Pando analogy also applies to everyone and everything existing in the world as well. Every person, every rock, every whiff of air is a little piece of a deity that existed before Mundus was created. Everything is an avatar. Everything is alike. Why don't they all fuse together and become gods at dramatic moments? If 3 avatars of Lorkhan combine, then the others must combine as well. If the others do not combine, then the 3 avatars of Lorkhan cannot either. Just like Kirkbride, I can just as easily make a list of names from characters and spell out anything I like with it. But that does not make the people I list suddenly combine together into gods. For that matter, I can just as easily say that the fingers on my hand are all avatars of me. They are all the same, not separate, because they all grow out of my hand, and thusly out of me. Plus I can poke them into all sorts of things. Therefore they must physically combine together and replace me in the mythic sense? If a world is to be believable, it must be consistent with itself.

Finally, 'fulfilling roles' just strikes me as a cop out for a writer who has not placed any thought into their work. If I jump in the ocean, I do not suddenly grow gills because that fulfills a role, and is an efficient use of energy. It is Deus Ex Machina. Something happens because the writer said so, because they think it is 'cool', or it gets them out of a problem they have written themselves into. Not because it is consistent with the world that has been created. That is why I made the JJ Abrams reference earlier.

Posted by: mALX Jul 31 2013, 07:31 PM

Maybe the writers were making a quasi comparison to the Christian religion's Holy Trinity = God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit

Posted by: SubRosa Jul 31 2013, 07:34 PM

Now that really would be interesting. If they were doing that, they should have gone further. I think it would have made for a stronger setting. Neon Genesis Evangelion is filled to the brim with Christian symbology, and that is one of the things that makes it such a powerful story (if they could just make a decent ending it would be great... For Evangelion that is, not Christianity. )

Posted by: mALX Jul 31 2013, 07:41 PM

The "Elder Scrolls Wiki" has been completely revamped to accomodate the new story, however the Imperial Library and UESP Wiki's plus "The Real Barenziah" have maintaned the history as it has always been; just added the new story at the bottom so it is left open how the reader/Player wants to use or discard which story they want to. One of the reasons I don't use the "Elder Scrolls Wiki" if I want the original lore.

Posted by: mALX Jul 31 2013, 07:47 PM

Lol on the phrasing, and true. I've noticed the same thing in both Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 - symbolism as reference to RL events/beliefs/people/lyrics/etc. (Easter Eggs) Most of those have been "outed" though, which makes me think I am probably wrong about this one. Just a guess though, lol.

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 08:15 PM

Again, Pando is in fact one organism. The illusion of separation, one that they themselves are under is there.

It's much the same at the end of Bloodmoon, when Hircine offers you to fight one of his aspects. They are there because he wills it so. It's likely he could separate himself into all three at once, and they would not 'fuse' together.






Yes, the et'Ada precursor spirits of the Aedra and Daedra. Descendents of Anu and Padomay.



Not necessarily. Again, Lorkhan is a God. While, it may seem a 'cop-out' it is really that simple as: "He willed it to be so." He created the Aurbis, alongside the other et'Ada who became Aedra in the process. The Earth-Bones are the Ehlnofey, or the Laws of Physics. The Aedra and Daedra are both embodiments of their spheres and quite literally *are* their spheres.

In that Akatosh and Lorkhan are one in the same. Akatosh = Time, Lorkhan = Space. Two sides of the same coin. And Lorkhan and Akatosh have both been called 'insane'.




Exactly! Whether you realize it or not, you came closer to understanding with this than not. The thing with TES-Lore is, it's all a subtle wink at the player.






The unifying aspect is "Mythopoeic Forces".

You are aware of the concept throughout many genre's that the more a particular god is worshipped, the stronger they become?

It's like this with "walk like them" (though not 100%). It does not mean that if you jump in the Ocean you grow gills, I'm sorry if I presented it in such a way that would cause that interpretation. More accurately, if you jump in the ocean, more water gets displaced, and it becomes more...'powerful' in the sense that there is now less land.

Tamriel is a world that can be altered through belief and worship (and the construction set/creation kit hence the wink, no it's not literal in that sense.) Which is why the Aedra seem to favor Men over Mer.

Point the first: Sheogorath/Jyggalag wanted the CoC to take the Mantle of Sheogorath, because symbols are very important in the Aurbis.

Point the Second: The Thalmor want to eliminate the worship of Talos, so they can weaken Lorkhan and unravel the world and return to their et'Ada states. Whether or not this is possible remains to be seen.



Point the Third: It is no coincidence that Tiber Septim was an aspect of Lorkhan, or that he forged the Empire. Stasis and Change. Men think of the world as a good thing, thus they are more in line with the Aedra and encourage worship thereof, therefore Stasis, which the Empire was/is symbolic of.

Daedra represent Change, Chaos. The Padomaics. The Aedra represent Stasis, Order. The Anuics.

That world is very consistent in and of itself, if understood in it's own terms.

Posted by: SubRosa Jul 31 2013, 08:51 PM

I am sorry Blackie, but I still do not see an answer to my question. I think you are missing what I am asking, and going off on tangents. I am looking for a direct answer - in the games - to how three fingers on my hand grew together and replaced me? And why do not three fingers on everyone else's hands not all do the same?

I do not have a problem with avatars being similar because they come from a similar source. Just like I have no trouble believing that my fingers are similar because they come from a similar source. But that does not automatically make them replace me. Something else has to happen to catalyze that event. What is that catalyst?

I also have no issues with the idea that belief can shape reality. I could easily believe that the trio became Talos and that entity replaced Lorkhan just because everyone in the world believed it. That is exactly the kind of answer I am looking for: a specific cause for a specific effect. But I honestly cannot recall ever seeing that said anywhere in the games, either in a book or through dialogue with characters. I have looked through all the in game books (or at least I think I have), and the most any say is that Tiber died in the year 3E 38. But I never see details about how he became a god after that. If there is an in-game book that directly states that, you could just link to it and I would be happy with that answer. Very happy to be honest.

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 10:23 PM

The error lies in the perception. Not seeing the forest for the trees. You're saying fingers, I'm saying hand. The fingers do still exist, but the hand is what grasps.

It's more of a paradigm shift than an apotheosis, as they all were the same god to begin with.

That is also the reason it's never been addressed as such.

Just one final tangent:

Let's say Tiber Septim was the Nerevarine, He would have sundered his own heart with the final events of the MQ in Morrowind. Thus the fractal, insane nature of Lorkhan.

Talos is just another fractal of Lorkhan. The 'hand' if you will.

As far as the worship of Talos, in-game it's just a form of God-Hero worship, and they just so happened to have gotten it right when they lifted him above his station. Where they describe the process of the Three-In-One Talos, no I've never come across it, and your observation (which is astute, by the way, please don't misunderstand me ) is the first I've come across it.

Posted by: Kazaera Jul 31 2013, 10:53 PM

Ooh, a thread!

Okay, this question might just be answered with "it's history and contradictory accounts, duh". But...

...were the Nords at the Battle of Red Mountain? What were they doing there?

I find this really confusing, because Vivec's account (the only first-hand one we have) makes no mention of them at all, but then e.g. the Five Songs of King Wulfharth insists they were, but insists that it was House Dagoth and the Nords versus Nerevar and Dumac who were allied which doesn't... really line up with the Dunmer accounts... augh, this stuff always makes my head hurt.

Oh yeah, speaking of heads hurting... a second question.

Was Vivec on skooma when he wrote the Sermons?

Posted by: Black Hand Jul 31 2013, 11:04 PM

Hmmmm. I believe so, if memory serves it was the Nords invited into the conflict via Dagoth, and Orcish Mercenaries, the Telvanni described it as the "Dwemer-Dagoth-Westerner" forces. I'll re-read the Vivec account, simply not mentioning them doesn't necessarily mean they weren't. Absence of Evidence and all that.



On skooma? No.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-obscurity-and-deception

(All the way at the bottom of page for quote. Vivec is sometimes called MK's avatar in Morrowind...sorta a joke...sorta not...)

Posted by: SubRosa Jul 31 2013, 11:07 PM

The Nords had occupied Morrowind before their defeat at Red Mountain. Afterward they were driven out of Morrowind. And if I correctly recall, it was that defeat that caused Jurgen Windcaller to renounce using The Voice for war, and become a pacifist instead.

Posted by: Kazaera Jul 31 2013, 11:26 PM

@BlackHand - okay, didn't realise the Telvanni placed them there as well. What does still confuse me is the alliances... I thought House Dagoth fought with Nerevar, against the Dwemer, up to the point where Dagoth Ur was asked to guard the tools and used them instead? And then Five Songs claimed Nerevar and Dumac were allied... well, I suppose they might have banded together temporarily against a new threat or something...

@SubRosa - different battle of Red Mountain, I'm afraid. This was a few centuries after the Nords had been driven out, when the Chimer and Dwemer went to war.

Posted by: SubRosa Aug 1 2013, 01:32 AM

Ah yes, I see what you mean now Kaz. I was thinking of when the Dunmer and Dwemer joined together to fight the Nords in 1E 416. You were asking about the end of the War of the First Council, in 1E 700. It certainly looks like they were there for the second round as well, and did no better than the first.

Dagoth Voryn was indeed Nerevar's trusted companion and friend until after the Dwarves were defeated and Dunmer got their hands on the tools of kragenac. One view I stumbled upon is that Dagoth invited the Nords in at the behest of the Tribunal. It seems that Nerevar might have been holding out hope of settling things peacefully with King Dumac of the Dwarves. The Tribunal wanted the war to continue however, so they figured bringing the Nords in would force the issue. Exactly who the Nords fought is unclear. It looks like they were betrayed by the Dunmer, and fought everybody.

Posted by: jack cloudy Aug 1 2013, 08:37 PM

I wished I could help with that, but I don't know much about the battles for Red Mountain. (I swear I keep mixing them up.)


So I'll leave two questions.

1: What happened to the Eternal Champion after the events of Arena? (joke answer I can't help but like: The Eternal Champion literally became what the title suggests, constantly taking on new forms whenever the world needs saving. Which in Tamriel seems to be every Fredas.)

2: What exactly did Ulfric do during the Great War? I know he fought for the Empire but that is the limit of it. I have a fanfic going where the main character was at Ulfric's side during it and it would be embarassing if I left out important characters or added things that are blatantly false.

Posted by: SubRosa Aug 1 2013, 09:09 PM

I think that is all they ever say, which is to say, they never say anything more. Did I really say that? About all they really tell us for certain is that he gave up being a Greybeard to join up to fight for the Empire, that he was captured, tortured by Elenwen, and made to believe that he gave up information that led to the Imperial City's capture (which was not true, it had fallen already, but that was not the point, it was just another way to torture him). The Talmor's Dossier says he was allowed to escape. But that of course does not mean he was allowed to escape. I would not be surprised if his escape was quite real, and Elenwen wrote that to cover her ass after the fact. This is the Thalmor after all...

It certainly looks like Galmar and Rikke fought alongside him in the war. Whether either of them were captured or not is unclear. My guess is not. But its pretty open ground for anyone to plow.

Posted by: jack cloudy Aug 3 2013, 11:33 AM

So not much more than I already knew then. Oh well, a blank slate is perhaps the most convenient.


As for Galmar and Rikke, Galmar is a possible prisoner but I doubt Rikke would have been captured by the Thalmor. It makes her later service as Tullius' right hand embarrassing for the Thalmor. Not to mention giving her a motive for revenge that makes her coöperation with the Thalmor suspect. Elenwen would not permit someone near her who has every reason to fly off the hook and knock her head off.


As for Ulfric's escape, I like to think that it wasn't him suddenly deciding to leave all on his own after all the torture. Rather it involved an assault on the complex from the outside. This could also be the place and time where Ulfric for the first time broke the way of the Voice and used the Shout as a weapon. Whether the escape was because the Thalmor allowed it or because the prisonbreakers were just too badass can be left open.




And speaking of the dossier for a moment. It is curious how it describes Ulfric as a dormant asset. I understand that the Thalmor are basically rubbing their hands with glee over the whole civil war. It weakens the empire after all and opens a second front the legion has to deal with. But at the same time I doubt that Ulfric is secretly in league with the Aldmeri Dominion. Unwitting pawn who can't see he is playing into the hands of those he proclaims to be his ultimate enemy, yes. Spy? No.


The dossier mentions having had direct contact and later implies that there is still secret aid. My interpretations of these is that Elenwen or one of her subordinates have spoken to Ulfric when he'd returned to Skyrim. Possibly to incite him (while making him think he'd come up with the idea himself of course) into going to war against the empire. The secret aid could be weapons and funding of course, but I think it is more in the vein of hindering operations conducted by the Thalmor against General Tullius. Think of the capture of Talos worshippers which serves to increase support for the Stormcloaks, or leaking out information so that Ulfric could elude capture up till Helgen.

Posted by: SubRosa Aug 3 2013, 05:25 PM

It could be that after Ulfric was captured, Galmar and Rikke are the ones who mounted a rescue of him afterward. That strikes me as both believable, and a suitably heroic deed for the genre.

I too think the idea that Ulfric openly and willingly serving the Dominion is as unlikely as John McCain being North Vietnam's Manchurian Candidate. I think the term 'asset' is what most people get confused over, and mix up with 'agent' - which is something completely different. Every American pilot the North Vietnamese tortured for information was one of their assets. But that is not to say that any of them were working for the North Vietnamese. They are just people who could be manipulated to accomplish the NVA's goals.

Likewise, Tullius, Rikke, Elisef, and Titus Mede are all Thalmor assets as well, because they are people whom the Altmer can manipulate to accomplish their ends. The only difference between Ulfric and Tullius in that regard is that the Thalmor cannot approach Ulfric directly (since he'll kill them). They have to use secret agents whom Ulfric does not know are Thalmor spies to push or prod or leak information to him. While on the other hand Tullius can be found at the Thalmor's parties.

The Thalmor's ultimate goal is of course to keep both sides fighting one another indefinitely. So I do believe they are helping Ulfric on the sly with information about Imperial movements, etc... and of course the same in reverse. Anything to keep them both in the fight. In the end both the Empire and the Stormcloaks are being used by the Thalmor, because the civil war provides a distraction. The Dominion needs to keep the round-ears busy while they rebuild their losses from Red Ring Road. Given that they are elves, it will take their women a long, long time to squirt out even one new generation of kids.

Posted by: Kiln Aug 4 2013, 12:01 AM

So it has been a while and my lore is a little rusty.

My question is, was Nerevar solely responsible for the chain of events that destroyed Morrowind?

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Aug 4 2013, 12:06 AM

Weeeell, it depends on how you want to assign blame for these things, considering it was the Tribunal who wanted to play silly buggers with the Tools of Kagrenac and all that, but the Nerevarine essentially took away the power of both the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur by destroying the Heart of Lorkhan. Once that was done, Vivec no longer had the power to stop the Ministry of Truth falling (and I believe that it had been placed in a chronological stasis of sorts, meaning it still retained its kinetic energy) and so it went smack-bang into Vvardenfel and set Red Mountain off.

So in a way, it was the Nerevarine's fault, but only because the Tribunal were a bunch of dicks beforehand.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Aug 4 2013, 12:21 AM

How many people died in the Invasion of Akavir? All of the soldiers and the troopers and the emperor? I want to know the estimate but not the exact number.

Posted by: SubRosa Aug 4 2013, 12:26 AM

I would say it is the responsibility of whoever threw the big rock at Vivec in the first place. Someone who has never been revealed. Plus blame has to go on Vivec himself, since he was such a gigantic dick in the first place that he 'riled up someone so much that they threw said big rock at him. Thinking about it, I would put more responsibility on Vivec, since he purposely left it hanging in the sky afterward as a sort of doomsday machine, to get revenge upon Morrowind just in case its people ever woke up and cast off him and his co-conspirators. It was his ultimate way of saying F-you to the Dunmer people.

Posted by: Black Hand Aug 4 2013, 01:31 AM

If you refer to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Baar_Dau, better known as the Ministry of Truth, it was held there by Vivec's power according to the story. It would be held there as long as he had the power and inclination. Almost a subtle threat as to what would occur should the faithful cease to be as such.

The source of the Moonlet is either a simple meteor, or Sheogorath, depending on which account you follow.

In the book 'The Infernal City' it is said that Vivec and his influence had all but disappeared and the Ministry was held in place by a machine of sorts invented by the Dunmer that was fueled with souls, similar to Ghostgate.

When that power ran out, Baar Dau landed with the same amount of force that was behind it when it was held in place, completely destroying Vivec City.

If you simply mean the rise and fall of the Tribunal, there is a secret message in the Thrity-Six Sermons of Vivec:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-obscurity-and-deception, use them to take out words from appropriate sermons and put them together, we will get a secret message:

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

Posted by: Kiln Aug 4 2013, 03:23 AM

Thanks guys. Was just curious because of the Skyrim DLC in which you visit Solstheim, I was reminded that the volcano is still spewing ash all over Morrowind and the dark elves are just a shadow of their former selves, having basically lost their home province.

The full consequence of Nerevar's actions during the main quest has really just become evident to me somehow.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Aug 4 2013, 04:10 AM

I've got to say, that was one of the favourite tidbits of lore Bethesda put into Skyrim; when you think about it, it's an obvious side effect of taking the Tribunal's power away from them, but I don't think that that occurred to anybody when they were first playing the game. It makes your action in the Morrowind MQ carry a lot more weight when that revelation does arrive.

Posted by: Kiln Aug 4 2013, 05:54 AM

Exactly. It was like a revelation for me and I just wanted to give props to them when I actually realized that they had created such well thought out plotlines between games.

Posted by: SubRosa Aug 4 2013, 06:50 PM

It is hard to say. Bethesda does not like to give out those kinds of details. From reading http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Report:_Disaster_at_Ionith, four legions were deployed to Akavir. There was going to be two more to reinforce them, but they were held back in favor of sending colonists instead. If an Imperial Legion is a similar strength to a Roman Legion during the Republic it would be about 4,200 soldiers. If it is the same as the early Roman Empire, it would be about 5,200. So we might say between 16,000 - 20,000 soldiers. There is no telling how many colonists arrived. Perhaps the same number as men would have been in the reinforcing legions? That would be from 8,000 - 10,000 people. So we might take the averages and say 18k soldiers + 9k colonists, for 27k total Imperials.

Some of the Expeditionary Force escaped to Septimia, and was rescued by the Imperial Navy. They do not give any numbers though, except that it was that city's original garrison plus the remnants of the Emperor's field army. So my guesstimate would be a few thousand people out of the 27 got away.

Posted by: McBadgere Aug 4 2013, 06:54 PM

One of the Knightly orders I mention in my KOTN thing is the Order of The Lamp...Is there any official Lore to do with them or is it all up for grabs?...

I mean, like I'm going to stick to it anyways, but I'd thought I'd ask...While we're at it... ...

Posted by: SubRosa Aug 4 2013, 06:59 PM

They are part of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Order_of_the_Lamp. They were created shortly after the guild was formed, when they realized they needed some security guards. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Origin_of_the_Mages_Guild gives some idea of the internal structure of the guild. Whenever you see battlemages from the Mages Guild, like Arielle Jurard and Roliand Hanus, they are members of the Order of the Lamp (Lampreys?)

Posted by: McBadgere Aug 4 2013, 07:52 PM

Lampreys... ....



Oh aye...Cheers!!...

Green Lanterns of Tamriel... ...

Posted by: Kiln Aug 4 2013, 08:44 PM

Alright so the dwarves seemed to be one of the great unanswered mysteries of the Elderscrolls universe until I played the Tribunal expansion.

The devs go to great lengths to say convince you that nobody really knows if the dwarves died or simply vanished, perhaps to another dimension. Then Tribunal came along and seemingly proved that the dwarves had actually died by adding piles of ash under each piece of armor in the ruin beneath Mournhold. So which is it? Did the dwarves actually die when their leaders attempted to use Sunder and Keening on the Heart of Lorkhan?

Theories are alright since it is obvious that there has never been a clear answer given to us.

Posted by: jack cloudy Aug 4 2013, 09:23 PM

Perhaps they all turned into ghosts? Over the eras most Dwemer just gave up and faded away, but there are still a number of insane and agressive spirits found in the ruins of Morrowind.

Morrowind also let's us meet Yagrum Bagarn (self-styled las living dwarf) in the Corprusarium. If I remember correctly he makes two claims.
1: He is a Dwemer.
2: He was in the outer realms (Oblivion?) when the Dwemer went poof. Since he was not in Tamriel when it happened, he avoided the incident. Ok, this one is sketchy as I don't remember well and Uesp isn't too helpful. If anyone has Morrowind installed at the moment, could you hit him up at Divyath Fyr's Corprusarium and ask him about 'dissappearance of the dwarves' ?


Now naturally I just have to assume that claim 1 is correct otherwise he'll be full of empty air. And claim one isn't a sure thing either. People can lie and the only ones who know about his existence in the first place are the folks running the corprusarium. Sure, he doesn't look like all other elves, but he is possibly the oldest still living Corprus victim and who knows what he looked like before the disease/curse hit him. The biggest clues in favour of him being a Dwemer is,
1: He has the beardgrow no known elf-species can match but the Dwemer ghosts encountered in Dwemer ruins.
2: He rides on what looks like a modified Spider Centurion or a mechanism of similar design, complete with the characteristic orangeish coloration of Dwemer metal.
All in all I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

So if we assume that he is telling the truth upon claiming to be a dwarf, then we can analyze claim 2. (if I'm remembering actual dialogue instead of a personal fever dream)

Now this implies that the Dwemer had some way of reaching said outer realm. Outer realm in this case could mean some other continent, the moons or some plane of Oblivion. I'm guessing Oblivion however. Whatever happened to the Dwemer, it seems to have hit every clan in all tamriel so there is enough possibility that it hit the entire planet. Also, Daedra are regularly summoned from Oblivion and Battlespire took place in an Imperial fort somewhere in Oblivion as well, showing that interdimensional travel isn't unknown to the setting. Of course, the Battlespire came along long after the Dwemer was gone, so it could have been a new discovery.


In any case, if the Dwemer were exploring Oblivion, there is the possibility that there are more survivors hanging out there somewhere or as per one of the options he raises, the entire species has been thrown into Oblivion. If every star in the sky is indeed an opening to a plane of Oblivion, then there are more planes than I think Yagrum could search before he got taken down with the Corprus.


Speaking of which, how did Yagrum get the Corprus anyway? The Corprus is connected with the heart of Lorkhan and the Nerevarine got it directly from an upper rank minion of the Sixth House.










Now for my own personal theory that is admittedly rather farfetched and unlikely to be true. Yagrum is actually not Yagrum at all. His real name is Kagrenac. Being the one who made the tools that later let the Tribunal and the Nerevarine manipulate the heart of Lorkhan into giving divinity or taking it away, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that he knows more about how to tap into the heart and use the tools than Vivec does. (Vivec taught the Nerevarine, so the Nerevarine's knowledge on the subject is irrelevant at best.)

That Vivec still needs the tools further suggests that he (she?) hasn't found a better method yet. Or maybe the tools are the best for sundering the heart and Vivec planned on tapping into the heart directly Dagoth Ur style the moment the Nerevarine was done slaying his enemies.

Anyhow, to get back on track. Kagrenac made the tools after studying the heart, did something with them that got the rest of the Dwemer wherever they are now, turned into a Tribunallish god himself. Then he lost the tools to the Tribunal and unable to access the heart or recover the tools, his godhood degressed into a form of Corprus.

As I said, this is an extremely farfetched theory. As such, its chances of being remotely true are practically zero.

Posted by: Black Hand Aug 4 2013, 11:38 PM

*Puts on Burger Monarch paper crown*

"Its Magic Time" He whispered.

Michael Kirkbride revealed in an interview some time ago, that they did reveal what truly happened to the Dwemer alongside the many possibilities.


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-skeleton-man

Short Version: The Dwemer, alongside the Altmer are/were obsessed with transcending the Grey Maybe, Nirn. Tamriel, the Aurbis, to achieve their prior state as et'Ada.

That's where the concept of CHIM came in. CHIM in TES-terms is simply a being transcending. It's more convoluted than that, but it's also a story for another time.

The Dwemer had an incorrect notion of what CHIM, or transcendence really was. They thought they had the ability to combine their race into a singular god, the Anumidium, and ...well that's what all those ash piles you come across in MW are.

Nerevar and Voryn Dagoth fought the War of the First Council for this reason, and walked in on Kagrenac right as he was 'transcending' the Dwemer and then...poof.


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Baladas_Demnevanni_(person) explains it better than I:

"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane."

"As the Dwemer left no corpses or traces of conflict behind, I believe that generations of ritualistic 'anti-creations' resulted in their immediate, but foreseen removal from the Mundus. They retreated behind math, behind color, behind the active principle itself. That the Dwemer vanished during a conflict with Nerevar and the Tribunal is merely coincidence."


"This first one is Bthuand Mzahnch's refutation of a popular theory from Nerevar's time. A few tones of Dwemer believed that using the power Lorkhan's Heart was an unjustifiable risk. "The Egg of Time" contains Bthuand's arguments against this idea, many of which are quite compelling. The next book, "Divine Metaphysics," is an explanation of how the Dwemer tried to make a new god, Anumidium, using Kagrenac's tools and the sacred tones on Lorkhan's heart."

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Aug 29 2013, 12:33 AM

I am a man with simple tastes and simple questions, so I won't be getting too much into CHIM or anything of that sort. I do have a few things to ask.

Daedric Princes and mortals. We've seen few mortals defeat Daedric Princes such as the Champion of Cyrodiil defeat Jyggalag and the Neverarine(or just a regular character) defeat Hircine in the Bloodmoon.

What I must ask is, is it because they were these prophesized heroes who's fate was written in the stars? Or can any skilled, and I mean very skilled, mortal defeat or fend off a Daedric Prince in combat if he or she spent enough time in that realm? I know Daedra cannot be killed, so I do mean defeated.

Posted by: Black Hand Aug 29 2013, 01:12 AM

Hmmm. An interesting question. Morrowind makes a 'statement' in one of the Temple Quests to 'debunk' a 'False Incarnate.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:False_Incarnate#Quest_Stages

Tuls Valen's instructions include that if you cannot convince him that he is *not* the Nerevarine, to kill him as "The Nerevarine is protected by prophecy and cannot die."

This also seems to be included within some lines of the the 36 sermons of Vivec, but they're more subtle breakings of the fourth wall.

In Battlespire, which is an TES game, but not numbered (IDK why) the Hero defeats Mehrunes Dagon by banishing him back to his realm by learning his Protonymic, and Neonymic, or his real names.

So to answer your question in simplest terms, yes. If a mortal who is not 'protected' by prophecy is skilled enough, and has the correct knowledge, there are plenty of examples of non-heroes defeating the Daedra. Even just as simple as the Thalmor and the Argonians closing the Oblivion Gate during the Oblivion Crisis.

In fact, Black Marsh or Argonia was actually so overwhelming against Dagon's forces, *HIS* people started closing the gates themselves, and the Argonians left trapped inside continued to terrorize those forces for an indeterminate amount of time.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Aug 31 2013, 07:51 AM

My two pence:

In every instance that we have seen this happen, the Daedric Prince has been displaced; Mehrunes Dagon and Hircine were on Nirn, Jygallag was in the Shivering Isles and had not yet fully taken control. They are intruders, and more importantly, they are intruding through gaps in reality, in a realm that is not of their nature.

They're powerful, sure, but they're trying to maintain themselves in a place that's trying to spit them back out as soon as it can; a lot of that power is probably going to be taken up just by the act of maintaining their presence. If a lot of their power is taken up by that, then a mere mortal would stand a chance at beating them. In their own realm, where the Prince is supreme, probably omnipotent and not constantly fighting to maintain their presence, I imagine even really powerful mortals would probably get flattened.

Posted by: ghastley Aug 31 2013, 02:09 PM

I'm with the Colonel on this, except that I'd suggest Jyggalag wasn't entirely out of place. He is Sheogorath, after all, and the Isles are his. But in that case, Sheogorath had done all he could to shift his powers to the mortal, precisely so that he couldn't destroy his own realm again. So in that case, it was Sheogorath defeating Jyggalag (or himself), via a temporary mortal wielder of the Prince's power. And since the Isles are attuned to the Sheogorath aspect until the Greymarch runs its course, and everything is ordered, he caught his Jyggalag aspect at its weakest.

Or, to put the same argument a different way, it was really Sheogorath versus Jyggalag, with the CoC tipping the balance.

"How can I be a Daedric Prince?"
"A fair question. You won't, really. At least I don't think so. But you'll have power. My power. Try not to lose it. It's a pain to replace."

Hircine may also be a special case. The possibility of failure is a necessary part of the hunt, and he'd restrict himself to make it "sporting", although I can't provide direct evidence that this was what happened.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Nov 14 2013, 02:44 AM

Simple question. Can anyone figure the estimate of time of boat travel from Morrowind to Cyrodiil? More specifically, to Anvil? A week?

Posted by: Rohirrim Nov 14 2013, 02:59 AM

Where in Morrowind?

Edit: I'd say three months at least, seeing as you have to sail around the continent to Anvil.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Nov 14 2013, 03:26 AM

From Seyda Neen. After checking out the map, I realize it may be longer as you said. But three months honestly seems a bit long, but not entirely unreasonable. So there is no definete answer on the possibility of a three week travel from Morrowind to Cyrodiil?

Posted by: Rohirrim Nov 14 2013, 03:28 AM

I can crunch the numbers if you like. Speed of a trireme, map scale, etc. I'll do it tomorrow, I suppose.

Posted by: SubRosa Nov 14 2013, 04:27 AM

It all depends on what the map scale is supposed to be. If you go by the size of Cyrodiil and Morrowind in the games, then those two provinces together are only about 20 miles and change across, which would make Tamriel about 70 miles from end to end. Basically one day's travel by boat.

But I always pictured Tamriel as being much larger than how they portray it in the games. I like to imagine it is a real continent in size, like North America or Africa, so perhaps 3,000 miles across. The Atlantic is about 3,600 miles across from North America to Spain, and that took about 4 weeks to travel back in the Age of Sail. I would put the trip from Morrowind to Anvil at maybe a week longer due to having to sail around some of the continent, rather than going a straight line.

Posted by: Acadian Nov 14 2013, 04:50 PM

Short opinion: Three weeks is very possible in Buffy's world. Go for it!

Long opinion:

SubRosa is exactly correct in that 'It Depends'. There have been numerous discussions about this in the BethSoft Oblivion forums and the closer you get to working with game mechanics the more one comes up with small figures. I believe it was Pseron Wyrd that carefully calculated the 'cells' and such and came up a smallish figure like SubRosa mentioned. The beauty of the 'It Depends' answer is that it allows us to make reasonable assumptions to fit our view of Tamriel that can vary greatly to suit our purpose.

For what it's worth, my approach has been based on time scale rather than an elusive map scale. Although the default time scale is 1 hour of play = 30 hours of game day, that scale is completely adjustable using the command console. Those of us that adjust it, based on threads discussing the matter at BethSoft, seem to generally favor using a time scale of 10-12. I use a time scale of 12 and am very happy with it. Using that time scale, Buffy and Superian can make a leisurely trip, perhaps averaging 4 mph, from one of Cyrodiil's cities to the next within a nice sunup to sundown day trip. That lets us extrapolate some distances and come up with the Buffy Lore notes that we use for planning factors in our fiction when it comes to travel. Let me quote my notes from the travel planning section of the stylesheet we use for Buffy's fiction:


*

Land Travel. Land = 30-50 mi btwn cities, 7.5-12 hours travel at 4 mph. Note: Cyrodiil = 225 mi across at widest point. League = ~3 miles (English Medieval) or ~1.5 miles (Roman Empire).

Water Travel. It is about 300 miles from the IC to Anvil using the route traveled by ship. At about 6 mph, this equals 50 hours of sailing. Port stops at Bravil, Leyawiin, two stops in Elsweyr (Duncori Walk and Senchal), four ports in Valenwood (Haven, Southpoint, Greenheart, Woodhearth), one stop in Summeret Isle (Skywatch) at about 6 hours per stop add almost another 50 hours. This makes for roughly a four day trip IC-Anvil. IC-Leyawiin=20 hrs. The Imperial Trading Company operates six ships from the IC to Anvil: Nymph of the Niben, Mara’s Tear, The Black Swan, The Peony Princess (Buffy’s fave), The Dragon’s Tongue, and Barenziah’s Breeze. Rihad Trading Company runs ships from Anvil northward.

*

Now, your mileage may vary depending upon the assumptions, but in Buffy's world, the voyage you contemplate could be accomplished in two - three weeks. The key, again, is the assumptions you make and being consistent within your own reasoned view of Tamriel.

Posted by: ghastley Nov 14 2013, 05:49 PM

Good point about intermediate stops. Trading will make those take longer, as goods need to be loaded and unloaded, duties assessed and paid (with all the entries made in the ledgers by a clerk who's off sick today). And since they're sailing ships (can't get the slaves for rowing any more) you're at the mercy of the winds. If they're blowing the wrong way you have to tack, and blowing too hard means sheltering in a bay somewhere until it stops. Entering and leaving a harbor may require high tide; miss the tide and you have to wait half a day.

If it's someone important, who's paying for the whole thing, then you cut out the stops, and it's just down to weather. At the other extreme, you'll get diversions to every place there might be trade. A trip up the Niben and back would undoubtedly be added in if you're working your passage.

Go with whatever makes sense for the story.

Posted by: SubRosa Nov 14 2013, 06:26 PM

Not of you are sailing on the Millennium Falcon!

Posted by: Captain Hammer Nov 16 2013, 07:14 PM

Can it make the Sentinel Run in under twelve waypoints?

Posted by: McBadgere Sep 14 2014, 06:46 AM

Hey, I know about that creation myth and stuff...But, as I like this sort of thing, has there ever been any proper astronomical detail come out about Nirn and the wider universe?...

Obviously there's the whole "Which Stars are you born under..."...

This is all as it was night time as I continued my walk along the Orange Road, so I looks up at the sky - which is always beautiful - and sure enough, Masser and Secundas...BUT...to their left was what is obviously another planet...Much like you see Jupiter/Saturn or Venus in the sky as a larger star in the night/evening/early morning...(Mars is obviously Red and I didn't see one of them in the game, but my next "Quest" is to head up into the mountains above Bruma to do some observing...)...

Just wondering if there was any Lore about all this...

And...Why the hell have I not seen that before?...

Posted by: Vital Sep 14 2014, 09:26 AM

McB, I can't offer you much as far as answering your question is concerned, but I do have to thank you for inspiring me to create an astronomer character

The only real examples of astronomy in TES is the dwemer, so I guess we don't really know much. This is what uesp had:

Nirn has two moons, Masser and Secunda. The other astral bodies in the sky above Nirn are believed to actually be the spheres of the Aedra and Daedra, as seen from the mortal plane. The sun and stars are also punctures in the veil of Oblivion, through which the light of Aetherius shines into Mundus. One exception is the snake constellation, The Serpent, which 'wanders' about the sky. It is made up of "unstars".

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Sep 14 2014, 09:32 AM

From the UESPWiki:

The other astral bodies in the sky above Nirn are believed to actually be the spheres of the Aedra and Daedra, as seen from the mortal plane
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nirn

And then there's this little bit in support: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mundus

Posted by: McBadgere Sep 14 2014, 10:10 AM

Fair dues...Ta...

So what this basically says is that the monomyth is just so much beautifully written backwards medieval superstition as ours was before Galileo managed to turn a telescope on the universe... ...Excellent...

So I wonder what it says about the giant stellar dust cloud that obscures what is obviously supposed to be the bight centre of the galaxy that bisects the sky at night...

I did the "Go up the mountain and just watch" thing...So beautiful...Amazing bit of programming...

Posted by: Acadian Sep 14 2014, 12:50 PM

Heh, all I know (aside from big moon / little moon) is that there is a tight cluster of three stars that Buffy uses to help navigate at night since they are always due north. North Stars if you will. - - http://i.imgur.com/B4ss7RC.jpg

Posted by: ghastley Sep 14 2014, 01:07 PM

If you want to be further confused, try and reconcile the Orrery in Oblivion with the night sky.

Posted by: mirocu Sep 14 2014, 01:40 PM

This is pretty much the extent of my lore knowledge too...

Posted by: McBadgere Sep 14 2014, 01:51 PM

I've never seen the orrery... ...I'm not sure it's even on the PS3 one...

I've seen pics of it...So awesome...

That pic of the three stars and the moons...I'm guessing with the moons that the big one's Masser and the little, Secundus...I think the bright star at the bottom of the three is what made me wonder about the other planets...It looks like how Jupiter appears in the sky...

I can't get decent screenshots else I'd show you where I think they - well, at least two of them - are...

The other thing about your photo...When I look at the moons on my game they're separated by a fair degree...In yours, Secundus is about to precede Masser...I wonder if there really is an orbital mechanics mechanic in the game?... ...*Awed*... ...

Posted by: haute ecole rider Sep 14 2014, 07:00 PM

I do think there is some sort of orbital mechanics in play regarding the moons. I'm not so sure about the stars, I don't think the Three Sisters (or the Three Bears, depending on whom you talk to) that Acadian refers to move much across the sky - they might be close to the pivot point like our own Polaris is, and all the other stars rotate about it. Wouldn't it be sooooo cool if that were the case??

Posted by: McBadgere Sep 14 2014, 09:01 PM

Makes sense if they are the pole stars™...They are northern stars, for defo... ...Blimey, Robert/Tharryn may have to do some skywatching...

*Grabs binoculars*... ...