The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Official announcement Options

[Thomas Kaira]

Bad news on the simplification front. It appears that the class system has been axed entirely. No more major and minor skills, instead every skill contributes to your level. The higher ones contribute more, so we can at least pretend specialization still exists.

Unless, however, they are going to have us "tag" skills like we do in Fallout. But still, more uniqueness, please, Beth! The Elder Scrolls is The Elder Scrolls, not Fallout.

However, they are changing the perk system to the Fallout style "one perk every level" instead of having perks awarded for every 25 ranks in a skill you advance. This I support, less grinding and this will also make it more meaningful to gain a level.

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Jan 11 2011, 05:59 AM

[RagingMudcrab]

I highly doubt Skyrim will go the route of Fable 3, in that so much oversimplification makes it nearly unplayable due to lack of fun.

If it's more like Fallout 3/New Vegas, I'm okay with that. Some RPG purists would definitely argue that that game was a watered down RPG, but those same folks probably didn't like Oblivion. Or Morrowind for that matter.

[Olen]

Morrowind was a proper RPG, choices mattered and you couldn't get 100% completion because there were mutually exclusive quests (even quest lines). It's leveling/class system was complex enough without being annoying and it had loads of background, mainly becuase it was text to read rather then spoken. I prefered it's slightly more hardcore travel arrangements too.

Oblivion lost a lot of this to simplification and really didn't know what it was meant to be, it was too watered down to be a pure RPG but lacked other aspects backing it up. It rarely mattered what you did becasue everything would continue the same anyway.

Fallout was more watered down but was a FPS hybrid really which made it ok, not much there for RPing (in my opinion) but entertaining nonetheless. The leveling system was totally different anyway with XP rather than skill increases.

Skyrim, well... I don't know enough, losing classes isn't good but I normally went for custom ones anyway. Losing skills is worse, as is not having major ones so essentially what you do at the start won't matter in the least if they all advance at the same rate and your level depends on them all. Introducing perks could work, or it could just turn it into a fallout clone.

[mALX]

Morrowind was a proper RPG, choices mattered and you couldn't get 100% completion because there were mutually exclusive quests (even quest lines). It's leveling/class system was complex enough without being annoying and it had loads of background, mainly becuase it was text to read rather then spoken. I prefered it's slightly more hardcore travel arrangements too.

Oblivion lost a lot of this to simplification and really didn't know what it was meant to be, it was too watered down to be a pure RPG but lacked other aspects backing it up. It rarely mattered what you did becasue everything would continue the same anyway.

Fallout was more watered down but was a FPS hybrid really which made it ok, not much there for RPing (in my opinion) but entertaining nonetheless. The leveling system was totally different anyway with XP rather than skill increases.

Skyrim, well... I don't know enough, losing classes isn't good but I normally went for custom ones anyway. Losing skills is worse, as is not having major ones so essentially what you do at the start won't matter in the least if they all advance at the same rate and your level depends on them all. Introducing perks could work, or it could just turn it into a fallout clone.

I have to agree with you on this - I had trouble RP'ing Fallout 3 too. The New Vegas has the hard-core mode to really immerse, I'm going to try it out my next game.

[Thomas Kaira]

I have to agree with you on this - I had trouble RP'ing Fallout 3 too. The New Vegas has the hard-core mode to really immerse, I'm going to try it out my next game.

I turned it on right from the start.

Being one reasonably experienced with the mod FWE (Fallout 3 Wanderer's Edition), AND incorporating primary needs into Oblivion, I don't think I could stand how easy normal mode would be, nor would I be able to process not having to eat or drink.

I'm a total sucker when it comes to immersion, I know. I hope Skyrim will add a few things to the fold that Oblivion lacked (proper fishing, maybe? Ice Fishing?).

[mALX]

I have to agree with you on this - I had trouble RP'ing Fallout 3 too. The New Vegas has the hard-core mode to really immerse, I'm going to try it out my next game.

I turned it on right from the start.

Being one reasonably experienced with the mod FWE (Fallout 3 Wanderer's Edition), AND incorporating primary needs into Oblivion, I don't think I could stand how easy normal mode would be, nor would I be able to process not having to eat or drink.

I'm a total sucker when it comes to immersion, I know. I hope Skyrim will add a few things to the fold that Oblivion lacked (proper fishing, maybe? Ice Fishing?).

I have reserved Skyrim for the PC and 360 - hope my PC will handle it. Oblivion had some mods that gave that "hard core" gameplay to it - helped tremendously with the roleplay. Fallout 3 did too, but my PC couldn't handle the game. (Bleah). I am really hoping this new game engine on Skyrim will be playable on my PC - hope!

[Kiln]

The more I hear about Skyrim the more I feel that its been gutted. Maybe its just that I was spoiled with the depth that Morrowind had but Skyrim sounds like a pretty shallow game.

I'm sure some of you don't agree with me and I'm hoping that Bethesda proves me wrong but I've got a feeling its going to be more simplified that Oblivion.

[mALX]

The more I hear about Skyrim the more I feel that its been gutted. Maybe its just that I was spoiled with the depth that Morrowind had but Skyrim sounds like a pretty shallow game.

I'm sure some of you don't agree with me and I'm hoping that Bethesda proves me wrong but I've got a feeling its going to be more simplified that Oblivion.

From what they have shown us so far, I have found no reason to get excited. I am holding off till I see the gameplay screenies in February's GameInformer - I hope it will drum up a little more excitement for me, the trailer didn't thrill me at all, nor did the poem or the shot of a man fighting a bear over the remains of a wooly mammoth.

That said, however - excited or not I have it on reserve for both my PC and 360 - I always buy Bethesda games in advance, and will continue till the day comes when I find one that disappoints. I really hope TESV will not be that game, and that the game will be much better than the trailer's impression gave.

[King Coin]

I'm optimistic about the game. I don't think Bethesda is going to release a bad game or a disappointing game. The love the series as much as any fan and are only going to make something that they themselves will have fun playing. They made a lot of cash on Oblivion and Fallout 3 so they can afford to spend more on Skyrim.

[Helena]

The more I hear about Skyrim the more I feel that its been gutted. Maybe its just that I was spoiled with the depth that Morrowind had but Skyrim sounds like a pretty shallow game.

I have to agree with this. Not that I have much interest in the series any more since they pulverised Morrowind, but what I've seen and heard of Skyrim so far does nothing to change my mind. Let's see: fewer skills. Level-scaling. Yet another cut-and-paste "save the world from INSERT EVIL HERE" plot. Randomised missions (honestly, that in itself would be more than enough to put me off the game). Starting off in prison AGAIN. Working with the Blades AGAIN.

I wish they'd ditch all the stuff about rampaging dragons and demon invaders, and return to the 'low-fantasy' style of Daggerfall and Morrowind. (Okay, so Morrowind technically had a "save the world from EVIL" plot, but it was very slow-burn and the saving-the-world part didn't really kick in until right at the end.) A game set just after the Empire's collapse could have been really interesting, but instead they choose to ignore all the possibilities and just skip forward a couple of centuries. What's the betting that in 200 years, everything will be back to 'normal' and the events of previous games - not to mention the pointless destruction of Morrowind - will just be vague backstory?

[Captain Hammer]

I wish they'd ditch all the stuff about rampaging dragons and demon invaders, and return to the 'low-fantasy' style of Daggerfall and Morrowind. (Okay, so Morrowind technically had a "save the world from EVIL" plot, but it was very slow-burn and the saving-the-world part didn't really kick in until right at the end.) A game set just after the Empire's collapse could have been really interesting, but instead they choose to ignore all the possibilities and just skip forward a couple of centuries. What's the betting that in 200 years, everything will be back to 'normal' and the events of previous games - not to mention the pointless destruction of Morrowind - will just be vague backstory?

Ah, the Infernal City? I am praying to Julianos and Magnus that the book's canonicity has been scrapped and the whole blunder attributed to the influence of Sheogorath.

I am also upset with the further skill reduction, since it means fewer things for me to be awesome at, and what seems to be a decision to forego Oblivion's useful ability of being able to hold a shield, mace, and cast spells all at the same time. One significant improvement over Morrowind was the magic system, and the ability to shoot off spells without having to switch off was a big part of that.

This post has been edited by Captain Hammer: Jan 18 2011, 06:34 PM

[Helena]

Ah, the Infernal City? I am praying to Julianos and Magnus that the book's canonicity has been scrapped and the whole blunder attributed to the influence of Sheogorath.

I'm just ignoring it altogether, personally.

I agree about the instant-casting in Oblivion. IMO that was one of the very few areas where Oblivion actually improved on Morrowind (and I played OB first, so that's not just nostalgia speaking). But yeah... I've read some of those "what should TESV be like?" threads on the official Bethesda forums. It's like the devs read them through carefully, and then decided to do the exact opposite.

[King Coin]

It's like the devs read them through carefully, and then decided to do the exact opposite.

There are so many contradicting threads on there that no matter what they do someone is going to be screaming.

[Thomas Kaira]

But yeah... I've read some of those "what should TESV be like?" threads on the official Bethesda forums. It's like the devs read them through carefully, and then decided to do the exact opposite.

No, they listen... maybe not to the right crowd, but they do listen.

It all seems to come down to the consoles nowadays when it comes to deciding what to put into a game, and it's no different with Skyrim it seems. What do console players want?

-sPl0s1ons!!1!11!!!11!eleventyone!
-Dragons
-Lotsa blood

Basically anything that prevents the game from being remotely interesting and unique just so they can massage that massive superiority complex that is contracted to all Xbox 360 fanboys (which though I have thankfully managed to avoid).

TES5 is still going to be so much better than most of the dreck that exists today (see Call of Duty, Activision's cash cow interactive motion picture... come on guys, just make the damn movie already), but it still saddens me that such a group who has absolutely no clue about what makes a great game is exercising so much influence over the developers. It's getting to the point where the lines between genres are becoming blurred. If this keeps up, I forsee a second Great Video Game Crash occuring because all the originality was stripped from the market, all in the desire to appeal to as many people as possible.

Really, you don't need to fix what ain't broke, and Morrowind sure wasn't broke. I don't understand why Bethesda is ignoring the fact that Morrowind is STILL selling copies even a decade after release and taking the frapping hint. We LIKE our TES games to be rich, expansive, and customizable; not hacky-slashy dungeon-divey five minutes of fun before the console goes off.

The way I see it, what they did to the levelling was completely unnecessary. All that was needed was to keep it as it was, develop an in-house GCD variant, and done! Instead we get even fewer skills, NO class system whatsoever, and a recycled Fallout perk system (although, I do tend to agree with this one).

If they do to the dragons what they did to the Oblivion Gates, I will chuck my 360 out my bedroom window.

I guess it's all we can hope for that their new "Radiant Story" doesn't end up another cop-out like the last time they tried "Radiant" technology.

OK, rant over.

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Jan 19 2011, 04:56 AM

[Helena]

There are so many contradicting threads on there that no matter what they do someone is going to be screaming.

You're right, of course - but the general consensus was definitely in favour of more depth and complexity, not less. Certainly everyone and his dog hated Oblivion-style level scaling (see this poll, for example), so bringing that back seems frankly perverse.

Really, you don't need to fix what ain't broke, and Morrowind sure wasn't broke. I don't understand why Bethesda is ignoring the fact that Morrowind is STILL selling copies even a decade after release and taking the frapping hint. We LIKE our TES games to be rich, expansive, and customizable; not hacky-slashy dungeon-divey five minutes of fun before the console goes off.

This. I'm not one of the ultra-fanatical Morrowind fans who thinks everything about that game was absolutely perfect, but I honestly don't believe Oblivion would have sold one less copy if it had MW's depth and complexity. I still remember the massive hype around OB's original release: it was all focussed on the graphics and the (supposedly) advanced AI, not the 'streamlined' skill system or simplified gameplay. And the 'dumbing-down' approach can backfire on developers as well - ever hear of Deus Ex: Invisible War?

The way I see it, what they did to the levelling was completely unnecessary. All that was needed was to keep it as it was, develop an in-house GCD variant, and done! Instead we get even fewer skills, NO class system whatsoever, and a recycled Fallout perk system (although, I do tend to agree with this one).

I wouldn't necessarily object to the lack of a formal class system, but I don't quite understand how that's going to work in terms of skill development. Will we still have 'favoured' skills that will start off at a higher level, and increase more quickly? Or will everyone start off with all skills at (say) level 5, and only raise them through gameplay?

[Olen]

Ditching the class system is a bit like scoreing pickled tripe off the menu. Very few people ever had the prebuilt classes (I never have) and made their custom ones, but equally well it was nice to know that they were there.

Will we still have 'favoured' skills that will start off at a higher level, and increase more quickly?

I think (though can't remember the source) that there are still 'tagged skills' but that they don't increase any faster and that all skill increases contribute ot level. But then something else said level was capped to 50 (or at least would increase very slowly beyond it) so who knows. I do worry that the level system will have been even more simplifed though.

Quest leveling was bad, but quest randomisation? If done cleverly it could succedd in preventing you from running into quests early while exploring, but it could easily be even mroe of a nightmare than the leveling which is still hanging around like a bad smell.

Still I know I'll buy it one way or another, if only in the hope that they ight have put depth in for those who want it. Then I'll go back to playing Morrowind.

[King Coin]

You're right, of course - but the general consensus was definitely in favour of more depth and complexity, not less. Certainly everyone and his dog hated Oblivion-style level scaling (see this poll, for example), so bringing that back seems frankly perverse.

I do not remember the source (or if it was just a post somewhere in the forums, I really hope not ) but I do not think they are using Oblivion style scaling. I think they are aiming for more of a Fallout 3 style.

If I can find the source I'll edit it in.

[Helena]

Ah, OK. I haven't played FO3, so I don't really know what the scaling is like in that game.

[Thomas Kaira]

The scaling in Fallout is something of a mishmash between Morrowind and Oblivion. The monsters are all leveled (including dungeon encounters, whereas Morrowind only leveled monsters in the overworld), but the minimum levels are now floored (and a couple enemy types are capped) and their equipment sets are static. There is no leveled loot, either, the randomly generated loot is just taken from a catch-all list befitting of the dungeon type (similar to Morrowind's random loot), and most of the big finds are static.

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Jan 21 2011, 03:21 AM

[King Coin]

Well the raiders in the game never got more difficult. You might have had problems with them at low levels but at high levels they where hamburger before your might! At low levels there were areas that had enemies called "deathclaws" and they were death no matter what level you are IF they get close. which at low levels they did often if you ran into them. They became more common at higher levels but they did not replace other monsters.