Today in Skyrim..., Epic battles, mudcrab sightings, anything but spoilers. What did your Options

[mALX]

I have done both sides of the civil war, and I felt the same way doing the Imp side. I think the Legion just makes you feel like one more cog in the Imperial machine, perhaps slightly less rusty than the others. The Stormie side felt much more personal and heroic. I think the titles you get are part of that. Ulfric gives you really cool nicknames like Ice-Veins and Stormblade. Storming Solitude with him Fus Ro Dah'ing the Imperials like bowling pins was great. It all felt larger than life. The Imperial side just feels like work. Like you are doing a job.

Wow, that is too bad that the rewards of choosing one way vs the other are so pronounced! It is certainly clear from reading this which side Todd Howard wanted you to choose, which is what I suspected when I used to play it. He was really so heavy-handed in his manipulation of the player to get them to play the way HE wanted them to that it just pushed me into playing the opposite and then eventually into stopping playing the game.

[Renee]

I am going to do the Stormie side too, one of these days, but that guy (it's going to be a guy, a Nord) will have the sort of personality which fits the questline a lot better, I think. Claire hasn't got the sort of feel. She's not really a warrior, she's a nurse.

I am also going to be trying out WARZONES Civil Unrest? again too, when I make this Nord dude, which is supposed to be a beast of a mod with all sorts of demands. It adds a lot, you know, it'll make the Civil War feel a bit more like a war. The author of this mod recommends using this mod with a "clean save" though (a brand new game), and so this seems to be why I had problems last winter when I tried using WARZONES in Claire's game, which was not clean, it was "dirty" ha ha.

Edit: Okay, I get it now. Maybe they're all waiting for Claire because she's a nurse. There, that's it. In fact, she's the only nurse they've got, maybe the concept of having somebody who mostly helps others on the battlefield is something nobody's ever tried, before Claire comes along. Sorry... RP awkwardness....

This post has been edited by Renee: Oct 4 2015, 04:21 PM

[mALX]

I am going to do the Stormie side too, one of these days, but that guy (it's going to be a guy, a Nord) will have the sort of personality which fits the questline a lot better, I think. Claire hasn't got the sort of feel. She's not really a warrior, she's a nurse.

I am also going to be trying out WARZONES Civil Unrest? again too, when I make this Nord dude, which is supposed to be a beast of a mod with all sorts of demands. It adds a lot, you know, it'll make the Civil War feel a bit more like a war. The author of this mod recommends using this mod with a "clean save" though (a brand new game), and so this seems to be why I had problems last winter when I tried using WARZONES in Claire's game, which was not clean, it was "dirty" ha ha.

Edit: Okay, I get it now. Maybe they're all waiting for Claire because she's a nurse. There, that's it. In fact, she's the only nurse they've got, maybe the concept of having somebody who mostly helps others on the battlefield is something nobody's ever tried, before Claire comes along. Sorry... RP awkwardness....

Sounds great, and sure makes a lot more immersive feel to the Civil War that is SUPPOSED to be going on than the few random "prisoner" encounters - especially for those not leaping into the main quest line right away (like me).

The way it is, unless you jump into the main questline, it is really hard to believe the country is in a state of Civil unrest. Other than those random prisoners being walked down the roads; there is no indication but a few gripes in dialogue as you walk through a city that there is even a problem. I was able to play this whole time with absolutely no intrusions of the Civil War in my game other than the (very scripted) scenes when you first enter Solitude and Markarth.

So I am seriously considering this mod, and appreciate you bringing it to my attention - and thanks for the link to!

[Renee]

Oh so that's it, eh? ... We have to also engage the Main Quest more fully to get a better, more immmmmersive Civil War? I see. I've got the MQ started for Claire's game, but only to the part when we fortify Riverwood, that's as far as I'm going with her. My Nord guy (the Stormcloak) will be the one who does MQ more completely, so that'll all be good then.

WARZONES is a huge mod, I dl'd it awhile back for Claire's game. I had all sorts of probs with this mod (like she was "underwater" during the one battle we did with this mod turned on, even if she was on dry land, there was this swimming animation that kept happening during the battle. Yeah...), but it's entirely possible that these probs occurred because her game had already been extant for a while, instead of a fresh new game. And that's one of the things the mod author (or authors) recommend right off the bat: start with a new game, previously saved games might have probs.

Anyway, now Claire has got Serana following her too, and also Lord Haaf-Mersey (I'm just pretending him now, but I'm gonna learn how to actually make him too). So it's Claire, Lydia, Aela the Huntress, and Serana in real-time. Pretty fun.

This post has been edited by Renee: Oct 4 2015, 06:32 PM

[mALX]

Oh so that's it, eh? ... We have to also engage the Main Quest more fully to get a better, more immmmmersive Civil War? I see. I've got the MQ started for Claire's game, but only to the part when we fortify Riverwood, that's as far as I'm going with her. My Nord guy (the Stormcloak) will be the one who does MQ more completely, so that'll all be good then.

WARZONES is a huge mod, I dl'd it awhile back for Claire's game. I had all sorts of probs with this mod (like she was "underwater" during the one battle we did with this mod turned on, even if she was on dry land, there was this swimming animation that kept happening during the battle. Yeah...), but it's entirely possible that these probs occurred because her game had already been extant for a while, instead of a fresh new game. And that's one of the things the mod author (or authors) recommend right off the bat: start with a new game, previously saved games might have probs.

Anyway, now Claire has got Serana following her too, and also Lord Haaf-Mersey (I'm just pretending him now, but I'm gonna learn how to actually make him too). So it's Claire, Lydia, Aela the Huntress, and Serana in real-time. Pretty fun.

That mod should bring the Civil War to life without even starting the main questline, make it more believable.

In my game, I refuse to bring the DragonStone back to Whiterun, so my main questline is frozen right there = never started/no dragons, lol.

I did that because Todd Howard said (in an interview before Skyrim came out) that he was so mad at everyone who didn't want to do the main questline in Oblivion that he made Skyrim impossible to avoid the main questline, tied everything together so tightly that you couldn't do anything without meeting the main quest head on. That you would not be able to play without fighting dragons.

Well, that ticked me off; because it takes all our choices away from us and we have to play HIS way in OUR roleplay game. I really didn't like that, and vowed to play the game without touching the main questline or fighting a dragon, (just to "show him" ) it could be done (not that he'll ever know, lol).

That and for all I loved the Main Questline in Oblivion, I remember SubRosa was firm set against doing it at the time she was writing Teresa, and I decided to follow her lead in Skyrim = not do the main questline until/if it was my choice to. At least in Oblivion they gave us the option of whether to/if/when.

So that is how I have played in Skyrim so far = my way. Exploring, and no linear Todd Howard channeling of my characters into his molds of what he thinks they should be,

That is why I like mods like these so much - with them we can shape the Skyrim situation to the way we think it should be - THAT is something I really like, and why I love modding so much. If it wasn't for SubRosa's help making Misa look decent, I wouldn't even open up the game, lol.







This post has been edited by mALX: Oct 4 2015, 07:22 PM

[SubRosa]

There is some more civil war stuff in the main quest. I think the biggest thing is that you have to arrange a meeting of the Imps and Cloaks to call a truce. Because the Jarl of Whiterun won't help you capture a dragon unless there is a truce. What does one have to do with the other? Absolutely nothing. After what happened at Helgen, only a madman would attack a city with a dragon in it. But that is the high quality of Bethesda's writing.

Come to think of it, much of the main quest really does not seem to have much to do with the actual main quest. There seems to be a be a lot of padding, and the Todd Howard mindset that mALX pointed out: that no one must be allowed to play an open world, sandbox game like an open world, sandbox game.

I have tried to do the main quest with a couple of characters. But I just cannot keep going. The farthest I have gotten is the Blade In The Dark quest, about a third of the way into it. It just always falls flat for me. Most of what I know about it comes from watching King Coin's Aravi vids, and from reading the UESP wiki.

TBH, the civil war really isn't that much more interesting from the Cloak side though. It is still mostly a bunch of repetitive "take the castle" quests, with a few other spy-like missions tossed in. In the end almost nothing changes. The most obvious thing is that the uniforms of the guards for half the holds changes depending on which side you are on. Plus if you go Cloak the Thalmor patrols and captured Nords on the roads stop, and the Temple of the Divines in Solitude gets a Talos statue added to it. That is really all that changes in the world.

[mALX]

There is some more civil war stuff in the main quest. I think the biggest thing is that you have to arrange a meeting of the Imps and Cloaks to call a truce. Because the Jarl of Whiterun won't help you capture a dragon unless there is a truce. What does one have to do with the other? Absolutely nothing. After what happened at Helgen, only a madman would attack a city with a dragon in it. But that is the high quality of Bethesda's writing.

Come to think of it, much of the main quest really does not seem to have much to do with the actual main quest. There seems to be a be a lot of padding, and the Todd Howard mindset that mALX pointed out: that no one must be allowed to play an open world, sandbox game like an open world, sandbox game.

I have tried to do the main quest with a couple of characters. But I just cannot keep going. The farthest I have gotten is the Blade In The Dark quest, about a third of the way into it. It just always falls flat for me. Most of what I know about it comes from watching King Coin's Aravi vids, and from reading the UESP wiki.

TBH, the civil war really isn't that much more interesting from the Cloak side though. It is still mostly a bunch of repetitive "take the castle" quests, with a few other spy-like missions tossed in. In the end almost nothing changes. The most obvious thing is that the uniforms of the guards for half the holds changes depending on which side you are on. Plus if you go Cloak the Thalmor patrols and captured Nords on the roads stop, and the Temple of the Divines in Solitude gets a Talos statue added to it. That is really all that changes in the world.

I'm still floored that throughout the whole game everyone talks about "The Companions" as an honorable organization; and Bethesda saw nothing wrong with them taking contracts to beat up shop keepers like mercenary thugs; not even mentioning that they won't allow you to complete the questline without becoming a werewolf - like one has anything to do with the other.

Imho, they should have attached the werewolf to a Hircine quest instead of the Companions; and had either the Dark Brotherhood or some mercenary faction (the player could join if they chose) handle beating up shop keepers instead of the "Honorable" Companions doing it (or the Thieves Guild - why would they be beating up shop keepers?).

And don't even let me get started on the 4 quests from joining the College of Winterhold to Arch Mage; they almost didn't even bother making a questline (or one long enough to believe you would be in line to run the place).

It was like in Fallout 3 when he put such a low ceiling on the game because he didn't want the player to be "uber." Like we couldn't control ourselves, needed him to do it for us in our single player game. I really hope they didn't let Todd's heavy handed control-issues affect Fallout 4.

Britch over, lol.

[Renee]

Actually,



Is the questline that has us beating up shopkeepers, not Companions.

In my game, I refuse to bring the DragonStone back to Whiterun, so my main questline is frozen right there = never started/no dragons, lol.

Most of my games are like this too, especially on consoles. I figured out pretty early how to stall the MQ before it even happens. It's not the questline I have problems with, it's the "dragon attack every few hours" that got on my nerves. Fighting dragons should be something which rarely happens, something special, and something which totally freaks me out. My opinion, of course.

Now that I'm on PC, random dragon attacks are super-rare, so there it is.

I did that because Todd Howard said (in an interview before Skyrim came out) that he was so mad at everyone who didn't want to do the main questline in Oblivion that he made Skyrim impossible to avoid the main questline, tied everything together so tightly that you couldn't do anything without meeting the main quest head on. That you would not be able to play without fighting dragons.

Wow, I haven't heard this one, but he's said some weird [censored] over the years, so this is not out of character for him.

I remember one interview in which he said something like "You can walk to your next quest, but who walks around in videogames?" ... implying that everybody who plays runs all the time. And that ticked me off too, because most of the time, my guys & gals are walking, even if they're on a horse, they're moving slowly along.

So thank the Nine that Beth didn't take this away. There are some games (Fable, Witcher, for instance) which only allow running. And this blows immmmmmmmersion for me.

I have tried to do the main quest with a couple of characters. But I just cannot keep going. The farthest I have gotten is the Blade In The Dark quest, about a third of the way into it. It just always falls flat for me. Most of what I know about it comes from watching King Coin's Aravi vids, and from reading the UESP wiki.

Yikes!

This post has been edited by Renee: Oct 4 2015, 11:15 PM

[SubRosa]

The Companions make you beat up shopkeepers too. One of the radiant quests you can get is to beat someone up. The game picks an NPC at random. It will even pick modded NPCs you put into the world, as we have seen in some of Grit's games.

[Renee]

The Companions make you beat up shopkeepers too. One of the radiant quests you can get is to beat someone up. The game picks an NPC at random. It will even pick modded NPCs you put into the world, as we have seen in some of Grit's games.

Oh I see. Didn't know this. Still though, TG forces us to do this, while it sounds like with Companions it's radiant, and therefore optional.

[mALX]

The Companions make you beat up shopkeepers too. One of the radiant quests you can get is to beat someone up. The game picks an NPC at random. It will even pick modded NPCs you put into the world, as we have seen in some of Grit's games.

Oh I see. Didn't know this. Still though, TG forces us to do this, while it sounds like with Companions it's radiant, and therefore optional.

Optional, but totally out of character for a supposedly honorable faction. It doesn't make any sense to have the Companions even connected to that type mission; if anything they should be attacking the thugs that are beating up shopkeepers.

I don't think Bethesda cared about realism or making sense, they just jammed stuff in there every which way and pointed to it like a kid pointing to their turd in the potty chair.

"Look what I made! Dwagons!"

[SubRosa]

It is optional, but only sort of. I think you can only have one radiant quest active. So unless you complete that "beat up person x" quest, you can never do any other radiant quests for the Companions.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Oct 5 2015, 04:25 AM

[mALX]

It is optional, but only sort of. I think you can only have one radiant quest active. So unless you complete that "beat up person x" quest, you can never do any other radiant quests for the Companions.

Doing that quest/task made me feel worse than any of the Dark Brotherhood quests did; and worse - the shopkeepers liked me/Maxical till then. After that it was never the same.

[Destri Melarg]

I assume you're all referring to the Hired Muscle radiant quest for the Companions. I've never really had a problem doing that quest. Farkas tells you that the person in question has been causing trouble, and that you are under no circumstances allowed to kill said person. That makes you far more honorable than the Hired Thugs that are sent to teach you a lesson, but always go for the kill.

The werewolf thing is what I hate about the Companions. Werewolves should be a part of some sort of overarching quest line for Hircine, just like mALX said. I could even see it as a companion (no, I didn't intend that) to the Dawnguard quest line. I also hate the fact that, outside of Ria, no one in the Companions actually does anything!

[Renee]

Optional, but totally out of character for a supposedly honorable faction.

Oh I agree with this, no doubt. Even during TG, I felt like bullying shopkeepers didn't really fit with the questline. Thieves are supposed to be underhanded and sneaky, not in your face, trying to badger you for money. My character who started that quest wanted to be a thef, but when it came to bullying shopkeepers, he was done.

This post has been edited by Renee: Oct 5 2015, 12:45 PM

[SubRosa]

I assume you're all referring to the Hired Muscle radiant quest for the Companions. I've never really had a problem doing that quest. Farkas tells you that the person in question has been causing trouble, and that you are under no circumstances allowed to kill said person. That makes you far more honorable than the Hired Thugs that are sent to teach you a lesson, but always go for the kill.

The werewolf thing is what I hate about the Companions. Werewolves should be a part of some sort of overarching quest line for Hircine, just like mALX said. I could even see it as a companion (no, I didn't intend that) to the Dawnguard quest line. I also hate the fact that, outside of Ria, no one in the Companions actually does anything!

Being hired to beat someone up as Companion works if the person they pick for you to pound on is someone like Olfrid or Idolaf Battleborn, who one might easily imagine are bullies. But when it is Danica Purespring or Carlotta Valentia? Sometimes it feels like I am supposed to beat up Mother Teresa...

The Werewolf thing is what always completely turned me off of the Companions too. It is the Werewolf guild, not the Fighters Guild. Not that I mind there being a Werewolf guild, but like you guys, it ought to be a pro or anti Hircine questline like Bloodmoon's main quest.

Optional, but totally out of character for a supposedly honorable faction.

Oh I agree with this, no doubt. Even during TG, I felt like bullying shopkeepers didn't really fit with the questline. Thieves are supposed to be underhanded and sneaky, not in your face, trying to badger you for money. My character who started that quest wanted to be a thef, but when it came to bullying shopkeepers, he was done.

I felt that way too the one time I did the TG in Skyrim. I wanted to play a sneaky burglar, who picked people's pockets or slipped in through the window like the wind and stole the goods with no one the wiser. Not a cheap thug. In Oblivion's TG questline I really felt like a master thief pulling off the heist of the century. But in Skyland the TG just made me feel like common scum. I really hated how they expected you to frame that Dunmer merchant in Riften, and the Honningbrew Mead guy.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Oct 5 2015, 05:12 PM

[mALX]

I assume you're all referring to the Hired Muscle radiant quest for the Companions. I've never really had a problem doing that quest. Farkas tells you that the person in question has been causing trouble, and that you are under no circumstances allowed to kill said person. That makes you far more honorable than the Hired Thugs that are sent to teach you a lesson, but always go for the kill.

The werewolf thing is what I hate about the Companions. Werewolves should be a part of some sort of overarching quest line for Hircine, just like mALX said. I could even see it as a companion (no, I didn't intend that) to the Dawnguard quest line. I also hate the fact that, outside of Ria, no one in the Companions actually does anything!

Those hired thugs are a carryover from Fallout 3; where depending on if your character was good or bad they got one of two factions trying to kill them whenever they are in the exterior Wasteland. It went over big, everyone loved it; so Bethesda stuck it in Skyrim.

If your character was too good, they wanted to teach you a lesson; too evil and they wanted to rid the world of you. It was exciting to have to watch out when you left a dungeon just in case they were lying in wait for you out there. (and if you had neutral karma you were not targeted).

They always carried a writ of assassination or contract to: "Kill Misa" (or whatever your character's name is).


BUT - In Fallout 3 you could also join one or the other of those factions to either become a thug and go out and kill "Goody two shoes" or to become a Regulator and clean up the Wasteland of evil people.

Either way, for each one you kill you get paid well.

And the Regulators had some honor to them, and camaraderie among themselves. It was like justice in the old west.

But I don't see an explanation like "causing trouble" being worthy of giving a beating to a local shopkeeper that you have to live beside and do business with in the future. It was a contrived way for Bethesda to stick fighting without killing into their game; which is something people have been asking for since at least Oblivion.

It isn't the fight I object to, but the lack of sense in where they stuck it in. They should have done it like they did in Fallout 3; where if you want to you can join a faction of thugs who beat people into submission to change their ways and earn some gold - your choice; (or added it to the Dark Brotherhood, that would make sense at least).

They did a much better job of adding in fighting without killing in ESO, imho. Some places you go to, a questgiver will challenge you to fight 3 of the members of their faction. (Like the drunken Nords like to brawl, etc).

You give it your best, but when they give up you have to stop immediately or the whole place will turn on you for assault. (I had to run twice on these for not stopping quick enough, but after you wait out your bounty you can return and finish the quest).

But you have the choice to take the quest, the NPC people WANT to brawl with you. There is nothing wrong/shamefull about it that way, it is just like a tougher version of sparring. I so much prefer that way of introducing brawling than just making the Player out to be a thug for hire within factions who shouldn't be doing any such thing.

Optional, but totally out of character for a supposedly honorable faction.

Oh I agree with this, no doubt. Even during TG, I felt like bullying shopkeepers didn't really fit with the questline. Thieves are supposed to be underhanded and sneaky, not in your face, trying to badger you for money. My character who started that quest wanted to be a thef, but when it came to bullying shopkeepers, he was done.

Exactly how I felt in the Thieves Guild. Why wouldn't we just sneak in at night and steal the money, or rob their house while they were at work, why beat them up for money?

I remember the Armande in Oblivion telling the Player "We are Thieves, not the Dark Brotherhood." I guess in Skyrim the lines have become blurred a bit.

And like you, it was the last straw for me being a Thieves Guild member in Skyrim.

Being hired to beat someone up as Companion works if the person they pick for you to pound on is someone like Olfrid or Idolaf Battleborn, who one might easily imagine are bullies. But when it is Danica Purespring or Carlotta Valentia? Sometimes it feels like I am supposed to beat up Mother Teresa...

The Werewolf thing is what always completely turned me off of the Companions too. It is the Werewolf guild, not the Fighters Guild. Not that I mind there being a Werewolf guild, but like you guys, it ought to be a pro or anti Hircine questline like Bloodmoon's main quest.

*

I felt that way too the one time I did the TG in Skyrim. I wanted to play a sneaky burglar, who picked people's pockets or slipped in through the window like the wind and stole the good with no one the wiser. Not a cheap thug. In Oblivion's TG questline I really felt like a master thief pulling off the heist of the century. But in Skyland the TG just made me feel like common scum. I really hated how they expected you to frame that Dunmer merchant in Riften, and the Honningbrew Mead guy.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say, but SubRosa said it much better than I could. THIS!


Edit: And I had forgotten that the Honningbrew/Black Briar mead thing was connected to the Thieves Guild; but I remember being so disgusted with it; and never did do the quest. Why would something like that have anything to do with the Thieves Guild? It makes no sense that thieves would involve themselves that way.

I did love the Thieves Guild in Oblivion, and like you said - it felt like you were a master thief, not scum of Nirn. In Skyrim, the developers clumped every filthy low life quest they had into the Thieves guild line; so you did feel like scum instead of a master thief.

I didn't do the Dark Brotherhood questline at all in Skyrim; but have wondered if they did a better job with it than they did the Thieves Guild or if they dumped their guild of "Elite Assassins" into common thug murderers too.


The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are supposed to be coming to ESO, I am really interested in seeing what they will do with them.




This post has been edited by mALX: Oct 5 2015, 04:42 PM

[SubRosa]

I also hate the fact that, outside of Ria, no one in the Companions actually does anything!

I also got that impression. Getting furry under the full moon aside, the Companions just strike me as a bunch of blow-hards, big on talk, short on action. Granted the Fighters Guild in Oblivion had the same problem. They never seemed to leave their guild houses (except for Lum, who you could always see showing off his beefcake out back ).

[ghastley]

The out-of-character stuff in the early Thieves Guild quests is something I put down to Maven's influence, rather than TG itself. You find out that Mercer and Maven were ... thick as thieves ... and it starts making sense.

I wish the quest line went further and eliminated Maven as well as Mercer, and I started making a mod to do that. But since it would need new voice acting, I moved on to mods that wouldn't.

I can see the point of hiding the werewolf connection from the applicant to the Companions, but I'd have preferred an option of not becoming one, even temporarily. I've only done that quest line once, and took the first opportunity to get cured. I also wanted to be able to force Aela to do the same, for completeness, but you can't.

The radiant quests to beat up citizens could probably be modded down to a more acceptable group of victims if someone chose them and created a formlist for it. Who votes for Nazeem as the only name on it?

[Destri Melarg]

Being hired to beat someone up as Companion works if the person they pick for you to pound on is someone like Olfrid or Idolaf Battleborn, who one might easily imagine are bullies. But when it is Danica Purespring or Carlotta Valentia? Sometimes it feels like I am supposed to beat up Mother Teresa...

Danica: “Something wrong, Ahlam?”
Ahlam: “Hmm? Oh, well... to be honest, I was just thinking of Nazeem. The gap between us seems to be widening. He is just so... self-absorbed.”
Danica: “Now, now, my friend. You must look on the bright side. If soldiers storm the city, there’s a good chance your husband may get killed.”

Not exactly Mother Teresa.

The out-of-character stuff in the early Thieves Guild quests is something I put down to Maven's influence, rather than TG itself. You find out that Mercer and Maven were ... thick as thieves ... and it starts making sense.

That's how I see it too. Mercer's leadership has driven the Thieves Guild into the depths of thuggery to the point that they are no more than strong-arm apes in the employ of Maven.