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> Questions of Lore., Ask anything!
McBadgere
post Aug 4 2013, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE
They are part of the Mages Guild. They were created shortly after the guild was formed, when they realized they needed some security guards. The Origin of the Mages Guild gives some idea of the internal structure of the guild. Whenever you see battlemages from the Mages Guild, like Arielle Jurard and Roliand Hanus, they are members of the Order of the Lamp (Lampreys?) wink.gif wink.gif


Lampreys... laugh.gif ....



Oh aye...Cheers!!...

Green Lanterns of Tamriel... tongue.gif ...

This post has been edited by McBadgere: Aug 4 2013, 07:53 PM
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Kiln
post Aug 4 2013, 08:44 PM
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Alright so the dwarves seemed to be one of the great unanswered mysteries of the Elderscrolls universe until I played the Tribunal expansion.

The devs go to great lengths to say convince you that nobody really knows if the dwarves died or simply vanished, perhaps to another dimension. Then Tribunal came along and seemingly proved that the dwarves had actually died by adding piles of ash under each piece of armor in the ruin beneath Mournhold. So which is it? Did the dwarves actually die when their leaders attempted to use Sunder and Keening on the Heart of Lorkhan?

Theories are alright since it is obvious that there has never been a clear answer given to us.


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jack cloudy
post Aug 4 2013, 09:23 PM
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Perhaps they all turned into ghosts? Over the eras most Dwemer just gave up and faded away, but there are still a number of insane and agressive spirits found in the ruins of Morrowind.

Morrowind also let's us meet Yagrum Bagarn (self-styled las living dwarf) in the Corprusarium. If I remember correctly he makes two claims.
1: He is a Dwemer.
2: He was in the outer realms (Oblivion?) when the Dwemer went poof. Since he was not in Tamriel when it happened, he avoided the incident. Ok, this one is sketchy as I don't remember well and Uesp isn't too helpful. If anyone has Morrowind installed at the moment, could you hit him up at Divyath Fyr's Corprusarium and ask him about 'dissappearance of the dwarves' ?


Now naturally I just have to assume that claim 1 is correct otherwise he'll be full of empty air. And claim one isn't a sure thing either. People can lie and the only ones who know about his existence in the first place are the folks running the corprusarium. Sure, he doesn't look like all other elves, but he is possibly the oldest still living Corprus victim and who knows what he looked like before the disease/curse hit him. The biggest clues in favour of him being a Dwemer is,
1: He has the beardgrow no known elf-species can match but the Dwemer ghosts encountered in Dwemer ruins.
2: He rides on what looks like a modified Spider Centurion or a mechanism of similar design, complete with the characteristic orangeish coloration of Dwemer metal.
All in all I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

So if we assume that he is telling the truth upon claiming to be a dwarf, then we can analyze claim 2. (if I'm remembering actual dialogue instead of a personal fever dream)

Now this implies that the Dwemer had some way of reaching said outer realm. Outer realm in this case could mean some other continent, the moons or some plane of Oblivion. I'm guessing Oblivion however. Whatever happened to the Dwemer, it seems to have hit every clan in all tamriel so there is enough possibility that it hit the entire planet. Also, Daedra are regularly summoned from Oblivion and Battlespire took place in an Imperial fort somewhere in Oblivion as well, showing that interdimensional travel isn't unknown to the setting. Of course, the Battlespire came along long after the Dwemer was gone, so it could have been a new discovery.


In any case, if the Dwemer were exploring Oblivion, there is the possibility that there are more survivors hanging out there somewhere or as per one of the options he raises, the entire species has been thrown into Oblivion. If every star in the sky is indeed an opening to a plane of Oblivion, then there are more planes than I think Yagrum could search before he got taken down with the Corprus.


Speaking of which, how did Yagrum get the Corprus anyway? The Corprus is connected with the heart of Lorkhan and the Nerevarine got it directly from an upper rank minion of the Sixth House.










Now for my own personal theory that is admittedly rather farfetched and unlikely to be true. Yagrum is actually not Yagrum at all. His real name is Kagrenac. Being the one who made the tools that later let the Tribunal and the Nerevarine manipulate the heart of Lorkhan into giving divinity or taking it away, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that he knows more about how to tap into the heart and use the tools than Vivec does. (Vivec taught the Nerevarine, so the Nerevarine's knowledge on the subject is irrelevant at best.)

That Vivec still needs the tools further suggests that he (she?) hasn't found a better method yet. Or maybe the tools are the best for sundering the heart and Vivec planned on tapping into the heart directly Dagoth Ur style the moment the Nerevarine was done slaying his enemies.

Anyhow, to get back on track. Kagrenac made the tools after studying the heart, did something with them that got the rest of the Dwemer wherever they are now, turned into a Tribunallish god himself. Then he lost the tools to the Tribunal and unable to access the heart or recover the tools, his godhood degressed into a form of Corprus.

As I said, this is an extremely farfetched theory. As such, its chances of being remotely true are practically zero.


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Black Hand
post Aug 4 2013, 11:38 PM
Post #44


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*Puts on Burger Monarch paper crown*

"Its Magic Time" He whispered.

Michael Kirkbride revealed in an interview some time ago, that they did reveal what truly happened to the Dwemer alongside the many possibilities.


Link to Skeleton Man's Interview

QUOTE
Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.

And what of the Warp in the West, where it is said six Anumiduma were seen in six different places at once, each one carving out a different mortal's destiny? We could see that High Rock is unified no more, that the flags of Nova Orsinium are real, that the Sload Priests talk to their new God of Worms, and none of them serve the sick heir of the Septim line; we could see all this and know that it is true. This Warp is but a realization of the trap that is the Gray Maybe, and that champion of release, the Brass God, has but reminded us again what the failure of his misuse means in the Arena Mundus.


Short Version: The Dwemer, alongside the Altmer are/were obsessed with transcending the Grey Maybe, Nirn. Tamriel, the Aurbis, to achieve their prior state as et'Ada.

That's where the concept of CHIM came in. CHIM in TES-terms is simply a being transcending. It's more convoluted than that, but it's also a story for another time.

The Dwemer had an incorrect notion of what CHIM, or transcendence really was. They thought they had the ability to combine their race into a singular god, the Anumidium, and ...well that's what all those ash piles you come across in MW are.

Nerevar and Voryn Dagoth fought the War of the First Council for this reason, and walked in on Kagrenac right as he was 'transcending' the Dwemer and then...poof.


Baladas Demnevanni explains it better than I:

"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane."

"As the Dwemer left no corpses or traces of conflict behind, I believe that generations of ritualistic 'anti-creations' resulted in their immediate, but foreseen removal from the Mundus. They retreated behind math, behind color, behind the active principle itself. That the Dwemer vanished during a conflict with Nerevar and the Tribunal is merely coincidence."


"This first one is Bthuand Mzahnch's refutation of a popular theory from Nerevar's time. A few tones of Dwemer believed that using the power Lorkhan's Heart was an unjustifiable risk. "The Egg of Time" contains Bthuand's arguments against this idea, many of which are quite compelling. The next book, "Divine Metaphysics," is an explanation of how the Dwemer tried to make a new god, Anumidium, using Kagrenac's tools and the sacred tones on Lorkhan's heart."


This post has been edited by Black Hand: Aug 4 2013, 11:44 PM
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Darkness Eternal
post Aug 29 2013, 12:33 AM
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I am a man with simple tastes and simple questions, so I won't be getting too much into CHIM or anything of that sort. I do have a few things to ask.

Daedric Princes and mortals. We've seen few mortals defeat Daedric Princes such as the Champion of Cyrodiil defeat Jyggalag and the Neverarine(or just a regular character) defeat Hircine in the Bloodmoon.

What I must ask is, is it because they were these prophesized heroes who's fate was written in the stars? Or can any skilled, and I mean very skilled, mortal defeat or fend off a Daedric Prince in combat if he or she spent enough time in that realm? I know Daedra cannot be killed, so I do mean defeated.


--------------------
And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Black Hand
post Aug 29 2013, 01:12 AM
Post #46


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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Aug 28 2013, 04:33 PM) *

I am a man with simple tastes and simple questions, so I won't be getting too much into CHIM or anything of that sort. I do have a few things to ask.

Daedric Princes and mortals. We've seen few mortals defeat Daedric Princes such as the Champion of Cyrodiil defeat Jyggalag and the Neverarine(or just a regular character) defeat Hircine in the Bloodmoon.

What I must ask is, is it because they were these prophesized heroes who's fate was written in the stars? Or can any skilled, and I mean very skilled, mortal defeat or fend off a Daedric Prince in combat if he or she spent enough time in that realm? I know Daedra cannot be killed, so I do mean defeated.



Hmmm. An interesting question. Morrowind makes a 'statement' in one of the Temple Quests to 'debunk' a 'False Incarnate.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:False_I...te#Quest_Stages

Tuls Valen's instructions include that if you cannot convince him that he is *not* the Nerevarine, to kill him as "The Nerevarine is protected by prophecy and cannot die."

This also seems to be included within some lines of the the 36 sermons of Vivec, but they're more subtle breakings of the fourth wall.

In Battlespire, which is an TES game, but not numbered (IDK why) the Hero defeats Mehrunes Dagon by banishing him back to his realm by learning his Protonymic, and Neonymic, or his real names.

So to answer your question in simplest terms, yes. If a mortal who is not 'protected' by prophecy is skilled enough, and has the correct knowledge, there are plenty of examples of non-heroes defeating the Daedra. Even just as simple as the Thalmor and the Argonians closing the Oblivion Gate during the Oblivion Crisis.

In fact, Black Marsh or Argonia was actually so overwhelming against Dagon's forces, *HIS* people started closing the gates themselves, and the Argonians left trapped inside continued to terrorize those forces for an indeterminate amount of time.

This post has been edited by Black Hand: Aug 29 2013, 01:13 AM
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Colonel Mustard
post Aug 31 2013, 07:51 AM
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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Aug 29 2013, 12:33 AM) *

I am a man with simple tastes and simple questions, so I won't be getting too much into CHIM or anything of that sort. I do have a few things to ask.

Daedric Princes and mortals. We've seen few mortals defeat Daedric Princes such as the Champion of Cyrodiil defeat Jyggalag and the Neverarine(or just a regular character) defeat Hircine in the Bloodmoon.

What I must ask is, is it because they were these prophesized heroes who's fate was written in the stars? Or can any skilled, and I mean very skilled, mortal defeat or fend off a Daedric Prince in combat if he or she spent enough time in that realm? I know Daedra cannot be killed, so I do mean defeated.

My two pence:

In every instance that we have seen this happen, the Daedric Prince has been displaced; Mehrunes Dagon and Hircine were on Nirn, Jygallag was in the Shivering Isles and had not yet fully taken control. They are intruders, and more importantly, they are intruding through gaps in reality, in a realm that is not of their nature.

They're powerful, sure, but they're trying to maintain themselves in a place that's trying to spit them back out as soon as it can; a lot of that power is probably going to be taken up just by the act of maintaining their presence. If a lot of their power is taken up by that, then a mere mortal would stand a chance at beating them. In their own realm, where the Prince is supreme, probably omnipotent and not constantly fighting to maintain their presence, I imagine even really powerful mortals would probably get flattened.
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ghastley
post Aug 31 2013, 02:09 PM
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I'm with the Colonel on this, except that I'd suggest Jyggalag wasn't entirely out of place. He is Sheogorath, after all, and the Isles are his. But in that case, Sheogorath had done all he could to shift his powers to the mortal, precisely so that he couldn't destroy his own realm again. So in that case, it was Sheogorath defeating Jyggalag (or himself), via a temporary mortal wielder of the Prince's power. And since the Isles are attuned to the Sheogorath aspect until the Greymarch runs its course, and everything is ordered, he caught his Jyggalag aspect at its weakest.

Or, to put the same argument a different way, it was really Sheogorath versus Jyggalag, with the CoC tipping the balance.

"How can I be a Daedric Prince?"
"A fair question. You won't, really. At least I don't think so. But you'll have power. My power. Try not to lose it. It's a pain to replace."


Hircine may also be a special case. The possibility of failure is a necessary part of the hunt, and he'd restrict himself to make it "sporting", although I can't provide direct evidence that this was what happened.

This post has been edited by ghastley: Aug 31 2013, 02:17 PM


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Darkness Eternal
post Nov 14 2013, 02:44 AM
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Simple question. Can anyone figure the estimate of time of boat travel from Morrowind to Cyrodiil? More specifically, to Anvil? A week?


--------------------
And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Rohirrim
post Nov 14 2013, 02:59 AM
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Where in Morrowind?

Edit: I'd say three months at least, seeing as you have to sail around the continent to Anvil.

This post has been edited by Rohirrim: Nov 14 2013, 03:14 AM


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Darkness Eternal
post Nov 14 2013, 03:26 AM
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QUOTE(Rohirrim @ Nov 14 2013, 02:59 AM) *

Where in Morrowind?

Edit: I'd say three months at least, seeing as you have to sail around the continent to Anvil.

From Seyda Neen. After checking out the map, I realize it may be longer as you said. But three months honestly seems a bit long, but not entirely unreasonable. So there is no definete answer on the possibility of a three week travel from Morrowind to Cyrodiil?


--------------------
And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Rohirrim
post Nov 14 2013, 03:28 AM
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I can crunch the numbers if you like. Speed of a trireme, map scale, etc. I'll do it tomorrow, I suppose.


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SubRosa
post Nov 14 2013, 04:27 AM
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It all depends on what the map scale is supposed to be. If you go by the size of Cyrodiil and Morrowind in the games, then those two provinces together are only about 20 miles and change across, which would make Tamriel about 70 miles from end to end. Basically one day's travel by boat.

But I always pictured Tamriel as being much larger than how they portray it in the games. I like to imagine it is a real continent in size, like North America or Africa, so perhaps 3,000 miles across. The Atlantic is about 3,600 miles across from North America to Spain, and that took about 4 weeks to travel back in the Age of Sail. I would put the trip from Morrowind to Anvil at maybe a week longer due to having to sail around some of the continent, rather than going a straight line.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 14 2013, 04:28 AM


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Acadian
post Nov 14 2013, 04:50 PM
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Short opinion: Three weeks is very possible in Buffy's world. Go for it!

Long opinion:

SubRosa is exactly correct in that 'It Depends'. There have been numerous discussions about this in the BethSoft Oblivion forums and the closer you get to working with game mechanics the more one comes up with small figures. I believe it was Pseron Wyrd that carefully calculated the 'cells' and such and came up a smallish figure like SubRosa mentioned. The beauty of the 'It Depends' answer is that it allows us to make reasonable assumptions to fit our view of Tamriel that can vary greatly to suit our purpose.

For what it's worth, my approach has been based on time scale rather than an elusive map scale. Although the default time scale is 1 hour of play = 30 hours of game day, that scale is completely adjustable using the command console. Those of us that adjust it, based on threads discussing the matter at BethSoft, seem to generally favor using a time scale of 10-12. I use a time scale of 12 and am very happy with it. Using that time scale, Buffy and Superian can make a leisurely trip, perhaps averaging 4 mph, from one of Cyrodiil's cities to the next within a nice sunup to sundown day trip. That lets us extrapolate some distances and come up with the Buffy Lore notes that we use for planning factors in our fiction when it comes to travel. Let me quote my notes from the travel planning section of the stylesheet we use for Buffy's fiction:


*

Land Travel. Land = 30-50 mi btwn cities, 7.5-12 hours travel at 4 mph. Note: Cyrodiil = 225 mi across at widest point. League = ~3 miles (English Medieval) or ~1.5 miles (Roman Empire).

Water Travel. It is about 300 miles from the IC to Anvil using the route traveled by ship. At about 6 mph, this equals 50 hours of sailing. Port stops at Bravil, Leyawiin, two stops in Elsweyr (Duncori Walk and Senchal), four ports in Valenwood (Haven, Southpoint, Greenheart, Woodhearth), one stop in Summeret Isle (Skywatch) at about 6 hours per stop add almost another 50 hours. This makes for roughly a four day trip IC-Anvil. IC-Leyawiin=20 hrs. The Imperial Trading Company operates six ships from the IC to Anvil: Nymph of the Niben, Maras Tear, The Black Swan, The Peony Princess (Buffys fave), The Dragons Tongue, and Barenziahs Breeze. Rihad Trading Company runs ships from Anvil northward.

*

Now, your mileage may vary depending upon the assumptions, but in Buffy's world, the voyage you contemplate could be accomplished in two - three weeks. The key, again, is the assumptions you make and being consistent within your own reasoned view of Tamriel.


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ghastley
post Nov 14 2013, 05:49 PM
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Good point about intermediate stops. Trading will make those take longer, as goods need to be loaded and unloaded, duties assessed and paid (with all the entries made in the ledgers by a clerk who's off sick today). And since they're sailing ships (can't get the slaves for rowing any more) you're at the mercy of the winds. If they're blowing the wrong way you have to tack, and blowing too hard means sheltering in a bay somewhere until it stops. Entering and leaving a harbor may require high tide; miss the tide and you have to wait half a day.

If it's someone important, who's paying for the whole thing, then you cut out the stops, and it's just down to weather. At the other extreme, you'll get diversions to every place there might be trade. A trip up the Niben and back would undoubtedly be added in if you're working your passage.

Go with whatever makes sense for the story.


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SubRosa
post Nov 14 2013, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE(ghastley @ Nov 14 2013, 11:49 AM) *

duties assessed and paid

Not of you are sailing on the Millennium Falcon! biggrin.gif


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Captain Hammer
post Nov 16 2013, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 14 2013, 12:26 PM) *

Not of you are sailing on the Millennium Falcon! biggrin.gif

Can it make the Sentinel Run in under twelve waypoints?


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McBadgere
post Sep 14 2014, 06:46 AM
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Hey, I know about that creation myth and stuff...But, as I like this sort of thing, has there ever been any proper astronomical detail come out about Nirn and the wider universe?...

Obviously there's the whole "Which Stars are you born under..."...

This is all as it was night time as I continued my walk along the Orange Road, so I looks up at the sky - which is always beautiful - and sure enough, Masser and Secundas...BUT...to their left was what is obviously another planet...Much like you see Jupiter/Saturn or Venus in the sky as a larger star in the night/evening/early morning...(Mars is obviously Red and I didn't see one of them in the game, but my next "Quest" is to head up into the mountains above Bruma to do some observing...)...

Just wondering if there was any Lore about all this...

And...Why the hell have I not seen that before?...

This post has been edited by McBadgere: Sep 14 2014, 06:47 AM
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Vital
post Sep 14 2014, 09:26 AM
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McB, I can't offer you much as far as answering your question is concerned, but I do have to thank you for inspiring me to create an astronomer character tongue.gif

The only real examples of astronomy in TES is the dwemer, so I guess we don't really know much. This is what uesp had:

Nirn has two moons, Masser and Secunda. The other astral bodies in the sky above Nirn are believed to actually be the spheres of the Aedra and Daedra, as seen from the mortal plane. The sun and stars are also punctures in the veil of Oblivion, through which the light of Aetherius shines into Mundus. One exception is the snake constellation, The Serpent, which 'wanders' about the sky. It is made up of "unstars".

This post has been edited by Vital: Sep 14 2014, 09:32 AM


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Callidus Thorn
post Sep 14 2014, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE(McBadgere @ Sep 14 2014, 06:46 AM) *

Hey, I know about that creation myth and stuff...But, as I like this sort of thing, has there ever been any proper astronomical detail come out about Nirn and the wider universe?...

Obviously there's the whole "Which Stars are you born under..."...

This is all as it was night time as I continued my walk along the Orange Road, so I looks up at the sky - which is always beautiful - and sure enough, Masser and Secundas...BUT...to their left was what is obviously another planet...Much like you see Jupiter/Saturn or Venus in the sky as a larger star in the night/evening/early morning...(Mars is obviously Red and I didn't see one of them in the game, but my next "Quest" is to head up into the mountains above Bruma to do some observing...)...

Just wondering if there was any Lore about all this...

And...Why the hell have I not seen that before?...


From the UESPWiki:

The other astral bodies in the sky above Nirn are believed to actually be the spheres of the Aedra and Daedra, as seen from the mortal plane
Lore:Nirn

And then there's this little bit in support: Lore: Mundus

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Sep 14 2014, 09:37 AM


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