Skyrim Improvements, we all know the bad stuff so.... Options

[Lady Saga]

Good day to all. I am Lady Saga, and today I'd like to talk about Skyrim's improvements.

I did a bit of lurking thru the Skyrim forums at Bethsoft this morning. It's slow at my job today, and I am fortunate to get time to just surf the 'net instead of finding "busy work" to do. It's been 4 months, and still there are folks out there making a fuss about the stuff that's missing in Skyrim. It gets old...it's been old reading about this stuff. Personally, I'd much rather focus on the things which make me pleased.

So here. Let us start an actual list on the stuff that we feel are Skyrim Improvements. and feel free to agree and/or disagree as you see fit. We're all friends here. The reason I'm starting this thread, folks, is because it's rare Bethesda actually has been congratulated on the things they've done right.

1). Lack of hand-holding. I would guesstimate that just under 50% of gamers on the forums wanted Skyrim to be more like Morrowind, so far as hand-holding goes. Although I've never played Morrowind, I know a few things about how this game starts, more or less. You start off on a boat, you are a freed prisoner (correct me if I'm wrong), other than this, the game provides few details about who you are, and what you are supposed to do.

I like this. I like starting with a clean slate like this, free of pop-ups being thrown in my face every 30 seconds. I like the need to figure out what comes next on my own. Although I'm not gonna compare Skyrim with what I know about how Morrowind does it, the fact that the game doesn't just hand-hold during the beginning, even as we're being attacked by a fearsome dragon!, is an improvement. I liked the fact that it was up to me to figure out what was going on throughout the rest of the Tutorial, and an NPC was there to teach me what to do (rather than a set of pop-up messages).

I'm not saying pop-up messages and hand-holding never occurs in Skyrim, what I'm saying is it's easier to avoid, easier to ignore, if the player wants to do so.
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2). The Clairvoyance Spell. My magic-based characters use this spell occasionally. It's a creative way to avoid the need to look at the 3D world map and quest markers, if one is trying to avoid doing so.
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3). With my non-magic characters, I have the option of using that brown paper map if we want to avoid the in-game 3D map.

Although Bethesda has never given an explanation on what that paper map is for, I'm convinced it's a clever way for us roleplayers to further immerse ourselves in the game. It's not just a nerdy thing to hang on our walls.

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4). Gathered ingredients actually disappear for awhile. This is kinda like the way it was in Sims2: Castaway, although I don't know if Beth stole this idea from Castaway or some other game. It's pretty cool imo that if we pick an ingredient, a mushroom, a flower, etc. it actually shows it being picked. My only criticism here is it shows an entire group of items being picked at once, yet only one flower or mushroom (whatever) appears in our inventory? Huh.

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5). Better magical animations, especially in the Destruction school. I've always thought Oblivion's fireballs, lightning, and other thrown spells seemed to move too slowly, and are way too easy to dodge. The first time a Fireball moved towards my character in Skyrim I was REALLY FRICKING SCARED of it. That particular character (Thor a'Zaene) vowed a fear of magic, and tended to run whenever he encountered stuff he didn't understand.

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6). The HUD. I realize that Bethesda probably never comes here to Chorrol.com but THANK YOU for allowing us to vary the opacity of the HUD. I used to put several pieces of electrical tape over the compass in Oblivion. Not only does it hand-hold for us, telling us what's coming up and what's going down, but I just found it annoying to have a "compass" that is always working for us. It defeats the purpose of playing a game in which I find myself wanting to get lost on occasion.

It's so awesome those of us who want to use this device can still do so, but those of us who don't want to can just turn it off. Or turn it down.

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7). Dragons. Although I have yet to have a dragon-filled game, I think these beasts are pretty cool. Some say they're "too generic" in this medieval setting, but whatever. I think they totally fit AND I like the fact that if we don't want them in our game, we can do something about this.

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8). Variably leveled encounters. Another thing Beth did right imo is to include areas of the game that are much tougher than anything we'll typically encounter in the Whiterun area, even if we're still at Level 1. The game isn't just filled with rats, wolves, and simple NPC's (as in Oblivion), it's possible to run into something much meaner.

Some say this is not a good thing, since we can't just go anywhere at lower levels. I think it's an improvement though...a challenge...if you will.

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9). Snow effects. They're not as good as I thought they would be (I was picturing snow would accumulate and stuff) but the way snow swirls and tends to move about in Skyrim, to the point that there are times we can barely see where we're going, is an improvement to the simple flurries of OBlivion. Real snow can be light or heavy, after all.

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10). Crafting, enchanting, Alchemy, etc. It's not just the fact that we get more activities in this game, Pseron Wyrd (over at Bethsoft) pointed out that the way Skyrim does it eliminates need to exit the game entirely into different menus. We get to watch our character make potions, make weapons, etc., instead of just having to imagine this stuff.


Phew. that's enough for now. I'm sure I'll think of dozens of other things as time goes on.

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This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Mar 23 2012, 03:28 PM

[King Coin]

I've gotta agree with the magic. It definitely looks and feels like it has some oomph to it now. I like the way you cast big spells too. Both hands and a little 'charge up' animation.

I'm also happy that there isn't as many NPCs just standing around talking about mudcrabs all day. I realize some people like that, but I for one tuned out everything they said because when I did listen, it was kind of distracting in a facepalming sort of way.

[SubRosa]

I am not sure I agree on the lack of hand-holding. I suppose it depends on just what you mean. In the tutorial there is always an NPC telling you what to do and where to go every moment: Run up the tower, jump to the inn, hide from that dragon, follow me, stay close to the wall, see if you can find some lockpicks and get in that cell, etc...

But I do agree that it is not done in your face with pop-up messages like in Oblivion. That was annoying to have to constantly click on "ok" to close the pop-up every ten seconds of the tutorial. In fact, I think the whole way that Skyrim just flashes a message across the screen when you advance in stages of a quest is much better then those annoying pop-ups. As I believe you mean, the Skyrim way (actually the Fallout 3 way) is much less intrusive, and does not break up the gameplay. Instead they put the hand-holding right into the story, where it feels natural, rather than the game telling you to do something.

Interesting you mentioned the plants disappearing after you gather them. That was inspired by mods for Oblivion and Morrowind. There were other things that were originally mods as well, which got put into Skyrim. The crafting for example, all started out in house mods for oblivion, that allowed you do to things like make clothing, armor, weapons, etc...

One thing I like are the radiant quests. They put a little more variation into the quests, as you are not always going to exactly the same place with every character. The bounty quests are a wonderful addition to help spark roleplaying, as they make it very easy to play a bounty hunter.

I also really like the way you can see dust and snow blow around. The dynamic lighting is also much more immersive as well. It all makes the game world seem much more alive.

The level scaling of enemies is also better as you said. That is another thing from Fallout 3. It was exactly the same there. In fact, a lot of Skyrim is taken straight from Fallout 3, including all those punk rock hairstyles.

I am also a fan of the crafting. Being able to make exactly what you want, instead of just hoping it turns up in loot or at a vendor, is so much nicer. It is overpowered though. For example, I learned with my first character that there was no point using any of the weapons you get from the Daedric quests, because I could just smith up something better myself.

I like the addition of random encounters (again from FO3). They spice up the game world by making things happen out in the wilderness. Now there are people to talk to, and more interesting things to see.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Mar 23 2012, 06:20 PM

[McBadgere]

Obviously...As a Knight character, the dual-wield sword thing is most excellent!!...I do love that a lot, but the downside of that is that they couldn't do the dual-wield blocking that real practitioners of the art can do...Seems a bit daft that...Pull all four front buttons on the PS3 controller maybe?...Would have worked...But anyways, dual-wield Bound Sword is brilliant...Love it!!...

And the "Hold button to continually cast spell" thing is brilliant...That is a definate improvement...

[Grits]

Followers and spouses. I like to play real people in a magical world, so relationships are important.

Cooking. In Oblivion I made restore fatigue potions with food names just for fun. I especially love that cooking doesn’t level anything up.

[King Coin]

I love dual wielding too! But I have to agree that there should be a way to block. Perhaps if you attack with your off hand at the same time an enemy attacks you, you could parry or block the attack instead of executing your own attack. I dunno.

Still love dual weapons though!

I like it that food is in this game too and it isn't just alchemy.

Archery seems a bit better, though I'm on the computer so I got rid of the auto adjustment. That annoyed me to no end because I kept missing.

[Kiln]

My least favorite thing about this game is the dragons. After you kill the first 5-6 it gets extremely annoying. It gets to the point where I'm like "oh great another dragon" and I say this with no enthusiasm what so ever.

I understand that they have to keep attacking so that you can continue to level up your shouts but the fact that they attack towns is really annoying, especially since the attacks continue when you finish the main quest. It just doesn't make sense.

The other main thing that bugs me is that there is no real feel of accomplishment. After you go through the civil war quest half the people in the game still talk about how Ulfric is such a jerk and nobody likes him even though he's dead or about how they're still being oppressed by the legion after they're gone. Even when you beat the main quest to stop the dragons from bugging the game's citizens the dragons still attack constantly.

[McBadgere]

Er...Kiln matey... ...

The nice lady said...

I'd like to talk about Skyrim's improvements.

It's been 4 months, and still there are folks out there making a fuss about the stuff that's missing in Skyrim. It gets old...it's been old reading about this stuff. Personally, I'd much rather focus on the things which make me pleased.

So here. Let us start an actual list on the stuff that we feel are Skyrim Improvements. I'm starting this thread, folks, is because it's rare Bethesda actually has been congratulated on the things they've done right.

Oh, I'm loving the Blocking btw...My newest Knight, J'Zirlo is a blocking fiend so we're having an absolute laugh here watching some giant Orc with a warhammer whack seven shades of Oblivion out of the shield and the level-up indicator winding its merry way up!... ...That we're loving this time...

Oh, the wife and daughter love the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood Armour stuff and the boy loves the new design weapons...I'm not so sold on them. Definately prefer the Ebony stuff from Oblivion, but...It'll do... ...

Oooh, Dwemer cities...Their beautiful...

Yes, I've been thinking about this thread... ...

[Colonel Mustard]

Best thing about Skyrim for me is probably the shouts. I love them. I love them to pieces. There's something innately satisfying about being able to yell at people to make them fly away, get set on fire or just shout at time to make it slow down for you, and seeing as I usually play as the heavy armour-wearing, claymore-toting type, they're immensely useful for dealing with lots of enemies where I might otherwise get bogged down and overwhelmed (FOS RO DAH!).

Also, the world of Skyrim itself is well realised. Not as exotic or atmospheric as Vvardenfel, but still incredibly well constructed and certianly a great deal more interesting than Cyrodiil.

And the Dragons. Dragons are great; they make things tense, exciting, and there is an unmatchable sense of tension one gets when everything around you hushes and you hear the distant call and beat of wings. There's something in there that seems to touch a truly primal part of me, set me watching the skies and clutching at my weapons for the first sign of danger. Not to mention the ensuing fights with them are usually epic.

Soundtrack also deserves a mention; listening to it now. It makes me want to cry with happiness.

[Kiln]

Er...Kiln matey... ...

The nice lady said...

I'd like to talk about Skyrim's improvements.

It's been 4 months, and still there are folks out there making a fuss about the stuff that's missing in Skyrim. It gets old...it's been old reading about this stuff. Personally, I'd much rather focus on the things which make me pleased.

So here. Let us start an actual list on the stuff that we feel are Skyrim Improvements. I'm starting this thread, folks, is because it's rare Bethesda actually has been congratulated on the things they've done right.

I was responding directly to item number "7" on the list. Skyrim does have alot of nice things like crafting and small jobs like woodcutting but dragons rank low on my list of favorite things about the game. When you sink tons of time into it the dragons become really annoying. I've killed like 130+ dragons and I'm extremly tired of them now. I just wish they'd at least stop attacking towns since I like to RP a normal citizen. It sucks having to break character and slay a dragon, then go back to woodcutting like a normal guy.

[McBadgere]

I was responding directly to item number "7" on the list

Ah, many apologies my friend...*Bows head*...

I agree about the dragons myself...I remember there was one point where I was dragon hunting to get the souls to fill the shouts, etc, when I just went, "That's it, no more" and I finished the MQ...But I never noticed another dragon after that...

Is your game...Glitched then?...


EDIT...The dungeons!!!...Some of the ones with waterfalls in are beautiful!!...Oooh, Eldergleam anyone?...

This post has been edited by McBadgere: Mar 26 2012, 06:30 AM

[Lady Saga]

@SubRosa: Yea, I suppose you're right. There are NPCs in the beginning who help guide us, which can be seen as hand-holding. I'd rather they do it than an invisible DM, though. To be fair, Oblivion also has NPC's helping us in the beginning, too...it's not just pop-ups solely. Truth is, I like certain things about Oblivion's tutorial more than Skyrim's. We could sit here all day discussing the plusses and minuses between the 2 games...maybe that's for another thread.

I didn't know about those mods. In Sims Castaway, a team of Sims are stuck on a deserted island. Every ingredient which is picked gets removed...vines, bananas, coconuts, etc. I kinda doubt Sims is the originator of this stuff, though.

Oh yea, I agree on those bounty quests, too. It's pretty cool, we never run out of stuff to do. I imagine even somebody who doesn't roleplay at all (and who's just simply addicted to the game) will find themselves looking forward to their next assignment.


@McBadgere: yea, that's true. I have yet to make a dual-wielding character, but it is a cool addition. Whenever one of my characters gets attacked by a dual-wielder, the extra damage is noticeable. Not being able to block really sucks though. It makes no sense. I really think in this case it was Beth dropping the ball. I don't think Beth was lazy (as the Bethsoft hatahs constantly complain) I think it was more a case of Beth not being able to implement blocking properly, for whatever reason.

Have the modders been able to implement dual-wield blocking yet? I'm betting they have, or eventually will.


@Grits: Oh yea...Followers are awesome. It took me a long time (almost 3 years) to figure out how to get constant followers in Oblivion. I would basically start, but never finish, quests. Dyan phor a'Cauz wound up having those 2 brothers (the ones that are supposed to go to Weatherleah) during the final stages of KotN, for instance, which really sparked up her game towards the end.

Lots of people are saying followers are too dumb in Skyrim, but there are improvements. They actually go into sneak mode with us, for instance. Yes, they also rush into battle at the wrong moments sometime, but there are creative ways to avoid this. I usually tell my follower to "wait" if I want my character to scout the next area of a dungeon alone with less hassle, for instance.


@ Kiln: wow, that sucks. See, that's exactly why I don't want dragons in my game, why I'm not initiating any of those questlines. 130+ seems way too excessive. Even in DnD and all the tabletop games, dragons were pretty rare, so far as random encounters go. It all depended on the DM back in those days, of course, but the actual random encounter tables for monsters usually had dragons as something which showed up very rarely.

I'd still say dragons are welcome in the game. But not every time my character goes for a travel. *shudders*


@Mustard: cool. Haven't even tried Shouts yet. I'm reserving that for some of my later characters, I think.

@McBadgere 2: I'd say Oblivion's waterfalls are spectacular too. Skyrim's are just different. The way water moves is a certain improvement for sure. One of my characters (Thor) used to love swimming. It's cool getting sucked into a stream of water and it actually pulls us somewhere. .

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Mar 26 2012, 12:48 PM

[Grits]

Dyan phor a'Cauz wound up having those 2 brothers (the ones that are supposed to go to Weatherleah) during the final stages of KotN, for instance, which really sparked up her game towards the end.

I remember, didn’t one of the Jemanes pick up the Sword of the Crusader outside some dungeon? That's the kind of chaos that I love. Yay followers!

[King Coin]

Not being able to block really sucks though. It makes no sense. I really think in this case it was Beth dropping the ball. I don't think Beth was lazy (as the Bethsoft hatahs constantly complain) I think it was more a case of Beth not being able to implement blocking properly, for whatever reason.

I heard that it was a late addition to the game.

[Lady Saga]

You mean dual-wielding? That makes sense. I know when M'aiq the Liar says something about "dual-wielding is not supposed to be about blocking" or whatever it almost seems like Beth's way of doing a reverse damage control. They knew a lot of folks would be picking on them for no blocking while dual-wielding...they knew it was coming. Lol.

Grits: I think what happened was Dyan went inside some fort, but left the Jemanes outside. She threw the Sword of the Crusader on the ground before she went in (I forget why. She may have been saving it for some reason). When she came outside, the Jemanes were in the midst of battle and one of them lost their weapon. It probably broke, so he picks up the Crusader's Sword.

I think what happened next is Dyan takes the Jemanes to Shardrock Farm (the place with the bear problem) and leaves them there, apparently. I really don't remember what happened. I remember assuming the brothers were still following her as she went off to the KotN Priory, but at some point she turned around and they weren't there. Oops.

It became a big RP thing from then on. What happened to the Jemanes? Did they steal the Crusader's Sword?

After defeating Umaril, Dyan went off to look for the brothers. She finds them at Shardrock farm, even though I swear she had left them behind at that fort by accident. It's a big mystery. As she found them, they still had the sword. The story "ended" right there. It just seemed like the right place to end her roleplay for good. Big mystery...did she get the sword back? Did the Jemanes just give it back or did they put up a fight? Did she ever take them to Weatherleah? Etc.

[Kiln]

Yeah I think dual wielding's lack of a block ability was done specifically for balance reasons. Todd said at some point in one of the interviews that it is a tradeoff between double damage or being able to protect yourself with your off hand and you can't have both.

[King Coin]

Yeah I think dual wielding's lack of a block ability was done specifically for balance reasons. Todd said at some point in one of the interviews that it is a tradeoff between double damage or being able to protect yourself with your off hand and you can't have both.

I can definitely see that. I'm happy that Skyrim, while still pretty easy to break, isn't as easy as Oblivion was to break.

[Lady Saga]

I got a new one for this thread. Something I haven't noticed before now, although some of you may have. Anyways, Beth is buying some fruit & veggies from one of the open-air market traders in Solitude, when I see a leek disappear from the table in front of her. I wasn't sure if it was me seeing things, so Beth buys another leek. Sure enough, another one disappears.

In other words, all the food laying around doesn't just lay around forever (unless we steal it). It actually is for sale.

[SubRosa]

I found this in Oblivion too. When you create a merchant, and flag an item as owned by them, it ends up in their for sale list. I first ran across it with my Witchcraft mod. I made a cottage for Morcant (who sells you the Witch spells and such), and gave her a bookshelf with lot of books. All those books turned up in the list of things she sold, and if you buy one, it vanishes from her shelf.

[Thomas Kaira]

1). Lack of hand-holding. I would guesstimate that just under 50% of gamers on the forums wanted Skyrim to be more like Morrowind, so far as hand-holding goes. Although I've never played Morrowind, I know a few things about how this game starts, more or less. You start off on a boat, you are a freed prisoner (correct me if I'm wrong), other than this, the game provides few details about who you are, and what you are supposed to do.

I like this. I like starting with a clean slate like this, free of pop-ups being thrown in my face every 30 seconds. I like the need to figure out what comes next on my own. Although I'm not gonna compare Skyrim with what I know about how Morrowind does it, the fact that the game doesn't just hand-hold during the beginning, even as we're being attacked by a fearsome dragon!, is an improvement. I liked the fact that it was up to me to figure out what was going on throughout the rest of the Tutorial, and an NPC was there to teach me what to do (rather than a set of pop-up messages).

I'm not saying pop-up messages and hand-holding never occurs in Skyrim, what I'm saying is it's easier to avoid, easier to ignore, if the player wants to do so.

Agreed on the handholding being easier to ignore, but there is a related issue I'd like to talk about here: Skyrim is incredibly condescending and patronizing. The game tries pretty hard, for instance, to shove quests into your face just so there is absolutely no chance in Oblivion for the player to miss them. What was so wrong with a random lone passerby on the road somewhere? That served as enough of a marker that he might have a small quest for me in Morrowind. Now, not only do we get the random passersby, they practically scream at you (literally) "I have a quest for you, talk to me!!!" And sometimes, they even force you into the conversation to start the quest.

Then there are the quest markers, which are a fairly obvious crutch for Bethesda now. For almost 90% of the quests, your ONLY directions are the quest marker. And they don't point you simply to the general location you need to be, but to the exact thing you need to interact with. And those things are already pretty obvious to begin with, so these quest markers are pretty condescending at the same time. Yes, I KNOW that Draugr is the boss I need to kill, or that giant lever in the middle of the room is the one I need to pull, get rid of that friggin arrow already!!

Tutorial? Well I personally love the message that pops up telling you "your Health is low" right in the middle of combat, like I'm too stupid to figure out what an almost empty giant red bar that depletes when I get hit means, interrupting me in the heat of the moment and completely breaking flow. Really? There's a fine line between tutoring and patronizing, and the game leaps a mile over it right here.

So while it is easier to avoid some of these things (quest markers can be turned off, for example) it doesn't change that it feels like the devs are treating the players like they are five years old.
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2). The Clairvoyance Spell. My magic-based characters use this spell occasionally. It's a creative way to avoid the need to look at the 3D world map and quest markers, if one is trying to avoid doing so.

Still would prefer a proper means of directions, but Clairvoyance is a step in the right direction.
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3). With my non-magic characters, I have the option of using that brown paper map if we want to avoid the in-game 3D map.

Although Bethesda has never given an explanation on what that paper map is for, I'm convinced it's a clever way for us roleplayers to further immerse ourselves in the game. It's not just a nerdy thing to hang on our walls.

Agreed. There's no rule against thinking outside the box in an RPG.
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4). Gathered ingredients actually disappear for awhile. This is kinda like the way it was in Sims2: Castaway, although I don't know if Beth stole this idea from Castaway or some other game. It's pretty cool imo that if we pick an ingredient, a mushroom, a flower, etc. it actually shows it being picked. My only criticism here is it shows an entire group of items being picked at once, yet only one flower or mushroom (whatever) appears in our inventory? Huh.

I think Beth got the idea from modders. One of the most popular mods for Oblivion was Harvest Flora, which did exactly this.
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5). Better magical animations, especially in the Destruction school. I've always thought Oblivion's fireballs, lightning, and other thrown spells seemed to move too slowly, and are way too easy to dodge. The first time a Fireball moved towards my character in Skyrim I was REALLY FRICKING SCARED of it. That particular character (Thor a'Zaene) vowed a fear of magic, and tended to run whenever he encountered stuff he didn't understand.

Magic looks great, no doubt about that. I just wish that it hadn't been utterly gutted at the same time.
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6). The HUD. I realize that Bethesda probably never comes here to Chorrol.com but THANK YOU for allowing us to vary the opacity of the HUD. I used to put several pieces of electrical tape over the compass in Oblivion. Not only does it hand-hold for us, telling us what's coming up and what's going down, but I just found it annoying to have a "compass" that is always working for us. It defeats the purpose of playing a game in which I find myself wanting to get lost on occasion.

It's so awesome those of us who want to use this device can still do so, but those of us who don't want to can just turn it off. Or turn it down.

I understand you play on console and that the UI experience is a different story there, but coming from a PC user, that UI is the most unintuitive, clunky piece of junk I've ever seen.

This post contains most of my views on why.
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7). Dragons. Although I have yet to have a dragon-filled game, I think these beasts are pretty cool. Some say they're "too generic" in this medieval setting, but whatever. I think they totally fit AND I like the fact that if we don't want them in our game, we can do something about this.

Anyone here read Beowulf? If you did, then you know why Dragons fit Skyrim like a glove.
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8). Variably leveled encounters. Another thing Beth did right imo is to include areas of the game that are much tougher than anything we'll typically encounter in the Whiterun area, even if we're still at Level 1. The game isn't just filled with rats, wolves, and simple NPC's (as in Oblivion), it's possible to run into something much meaner.

Some say this is not a good thing, since we can't just go anywhere at lower levels. I think it's an improvement though...a challenge...if you will.

The leveling is still a little overzealous in areas (Draugr Deathlords), but it has definitely been improved.
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9). Snow effects. They're not as good as I thought they would be (I was picturing snow would accumulate and stuff) but the way snow swirls and tends to move about in Skyrim, to the point that there are times we can barely see where we're going, is an improvement to the simple flurries of OBlivion. Real snow can be light or heavy, after all.

Now, if only Bethesda could actually fix the snowflakes going through the ceiling...
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10). Crafting, enchanting, Alchemy, etc. It's not just the fact that we get more activities in this game, Pseron Wyrd (over at Bethsoft) pointed out that the way Skyrim does it eliminates need to exit the game entirely into different menus. We get to watch our character make potions, make weapons, etc., instead of just having to imagine this stuff.

It is nice to watch, indeed. The crafting features are quite badly balanced, unfortunately, but it doesn't change that they are nice to have. One thing I think is missing, though: upgradable personal crafting stations, like buying a new Alembic for my alchemy table or improving the Magetallows on my enchanter. Oh well, maybe next time.