A Question of Class, s/Question/Rant/ Options

[Cardboard Box]

I'm trying to get into Skyrim, but the operative word is 'try', because Bethesda, no doubt advised by Sheogorath, decided to throw out half of the character creation system.

"Hi, I'm ___, the ____ ____. That means I'm intrinsically better with this, that, and the other from the get-go, because that was what I did before I got thrown in jail."

Fast-forward to Skyrim.

"Hi, I'm ____, the ____. I'm not especially skilled in anything, because I didn't exist before I was almost beheaded in Helgen. I'm just a one-dimensional pair of hands for some kid at a computer to drive around the countryside killing people and things."

You get my problem? (and no, the stones outside Riverwood are not enough.)

Classes provide limits and shape what you do, and when; Bethesda for some reason threw all that out the window. I'm literally struggling to connect with my character, since I have lost the mechanism by which she would have gained her drive. As it is, she's barely more than a Minecraft skin.

Does anyone know of - since Skyrim Nexus' search is © UselessCo - any good mods that bring classes back? Or failing that, any tips and tricks on developing a skill set and sticking to it?

[mirocu]

I don´t have any other suggestion I´m afraid than picking one type of armour and one type of weapon and stick to that. Same with the schools of magic, maybe just hold on to Destruction or Illusion?
I gimp my Oblivion character´s mercantile skill by having all haggle sliders to the left, maybe that could be an option?

But maybe I should shut up as I haven´t even tried Skyrim and thusly don´t know how it works

[Elisabeth Hollow]

You can level up based on what you use more. More magick using means you level up in magick. The stones help with that. The three are starter stones.

My characters are almost always fighters with a destructive tendency. It's a little more difficult when there's no set class. Just decide what you want to have and use those skills. You can't access certain skills without being skilled in them either.

[King Coin]

If you are on PC you can get a mod to 'correct' that.

[Grits]

One thing to try without a mod is to pick a race with starting bonuses that are consistent with the class skills they should have according to your own class assignment. A Breton starts out with +10 in Conjuration and the Conjure Familiar spell, so they feel like decent summoners from the start. My Redguard swordsmen (+10 in One-Handed) and Bosmer archers (+10 in Archery) have always felt right even in the beginning. Of course it’s up to you to make them use the skills that they’re supposed to be using, but this way the game provides some feedback by having them be better at them even before they develop in the game.

But it’s miserable to play against racial bonuses at low levels. A Nord stealth archer truly sucks at their chosen (by the player, not the game) skills at the beginning. I would not hesitate to re-assign skill points with the console to what they’re supposed to be good at according to my idea of their class. I don’t actually know how to do this, but I’m sure others do. What I’ve done to compensate in the game is simply play with the character’s restrictions in mind. Nothing stopped me from having my Nord archer pick up a war hammer except me. Eventually she got better at her class skills, and then she got awesome.

Assigning the right perks helps a lot. The game rewards you with experience for everything you do, but the player assigns perks according to their ideas. So in my Nord archer example I would focus perks in Overdraw to boost that skill even though experience has been gained from skills like Speechcraft and Lockpicking as well as the core skill of shooting things.

Also SubRosa has a thread about homemade alternate starts here. That would be a way to start off with appropriate equipment without having to pick up the correct items in the game’s Helgen start. Maybe adjusting skills in a batch file is also possible.

Now that I have Skyrim on my laptop I use Live Another Life to avoid the prisoner scenario. It doesn’t change the starting skills, but it’s easier to play a new mage starting off in the College of Winterhold or a disgruntled farm worked ready to make her way in the world when they’re not all dropped into the same cart as every other character.




EDIT: Also I found this mod on the Nexus: Character Creation Overhaul. I have not used it, I just did a search to see what I could find.

This post has been edited by Grits: Nov 10 2013, 04:21 PM

[King Coin]

EDIT: Also I found this mod on the Nexus: Character Creation Overhaul. I have not used it, I just did a search to see what I could find.

That is what I was thinking of. I have not installed it because it says it can mess up existing characters.

[SubRosa]

I'm trying to get into Skyrim, but the operative word is 'try', because Bethesda, no doubt advised by Sheogorath, decided to throw out half of the character creation system.

"Hi, I'm ___, the ____ ____. That means I'm intrinsically better with this, that, and the other from the get-go, because that was what I did before I got thrown in jail."

Fast-forward to Skyrim.

"Hi, I'm ____, the ____. I'm not especially skilled in anything, because I didn't exist before I was almost beheaded in Helgen. I'm just a one-dimensional pair of hands for some kid at a computer to drive around the countryside killing people and things."

You get my problem? (and no, the stones outside Riverwood are not enough.)

Classes provide limits and shape what you do, and when; Bethesda for some reason threw all that out the window. I'm literally struggling to connect with my character, since I have lost the mechanism by which she would have gained her drive. As it is, she's barely more than a Minecraft skin.

Does anyone know of - since Skyrim Nexus' search is © UselessCo - any good mods that bring classes back? Or failing that, any tips and tricks on developing a skill set and sticking to it?

Skyrim is like the Fallout games in they way that it does not have classes that you are locked into, or older Pen and Paper RPGs like Shadowrun or GURPs. Just like in those games though, you can still define your character by what skills you choose to concentrate upon raising, perks you take, and attributes you raise. So you can still play a fighter, an archer, a backstabbing thief, a pure-mage, a hybrid magic-using fighter, or arcane archer, and so on. It is all in how you decide to play after the game starts, rather than what you lock yourself into before you start. If you want limits, such as your fighter cannot cast spells, then do not cast spells. If you want your mage not to be able to wear armor, then don't wear armor. I impose limitations on my characters all the time. For example my character Persephone was undead. So she could not sleep (and get the bonus for doing so), and she could not use altars of the Nine.

The really big drawback in Skyrim's approach to classless roleplaying is the way every character starts out exactly the same. In contrast Fallout gives you 3 skills to tag when you start, and attributes to assign points to. The PnP games like GURPS also give you points for things like attributes, skills, gear, etc... to assign when you start. So in those games every character is different from the get go.

But you can do it in Skyrim as well, as long as you have the game on PC and do not mind doing a few minutes extra work. Grits linked to my topic about homebrew alternate starts, which also details how you can change your stats and give yourself different starting equipment. The two are actually separate things though. You do not have to use an alternate start to customize your character at the start of the game.

For a while I was giving my new characters an extra 10 points in seven skills to simulate major skills like Oblivion had, an extra 20 points in one attribute, and finally giving them a standing stone power to begin with. But sometimes that extra 10 points jacks a starting skill up to as high as 35, which feels like a bit much. So I decided to drop it down to adding 5 points in seven skills instead. I have also considered giving each character something like 35 skill points to spread around in any way, but going no higher than 30 in any skill, after racial modifiers. The 20 point attribute bonus seems to work fine though, not too much, or too little. Likewise starting with a standing stone power does not seem unbalancing to me.

Oh, and I also give my starting characters any spell or item that seems appropriate to them. For example, Le Chevalier D'Eon is a very magical character, so she started with an Open Lock spell, Night Eye, Bound Pickaxe, and so on. Since she is a knight, she also started with a full set of Eisen Platte Armor and her trusty black sword (all modded items). OTOH my orc Durga is a straight fighter, so she started with no extra spells, a suit of banded iron armor, and an iron battleaxe.

You do not have to use mods for any of this, or batch files if you do not want to (though a batch file might be easier). All you need is the command console. You can use Player.SetAv <Skill Name> <Value> to change any skill or attribute value. Player.additem <item id> <Number> will give you any item. Player.Addspell <Standing Stone ID> will give you any standing stone power. Finding the IDs is usually as simple as using the Help <name> 4 command.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 10 2013, 05:35 PM

[Renee]

You get my problem? (and no, the stones outside Riverwood are not enough.)

Oh yes, I get your problem. This is one of the few things people complain about in Skyrim that I actually agree with. It's not just classes, it's the entire system of Attributes, numbers, starting bonuses. "100/100/100" (Health, Magicka, and Stamina) for ALL starting characters? ... It's about as shallow as it gets!

The reason it bugs me is because some of us grew up with classes and more definitive attributes. Arguably they aren't necessary for roleplaying, but they are traditional RPG cues that add to the experience of creating and RPing a character. It's as if Bethesda go lazy or confused about how to implement Classes for TES: V. Rather than tackling these issues, they decided just to gut the entire system.

I have a pretty good idea why they did this, too. I believe in the year 2011, the average gamer coming up is bombarded with so many games nowadays, they haven't got time to figure out what to do with a bunch of arbitrary information. They just wanna game, beat stuff up, and ultimately "beat the game". Collect their Trophies or Achievements, and move on. Beth seems to be aiming for the masses, and the masses don't mind if traditional stuff is thrown out.

Classes provide limits and shape what you do, and when; Bethesda for some reason threw all that out the window. I'm literally struggling to connect with my character, since I have lost the mechanism by which she would have gained her drive. As it is, she's barely more than a Minecraft skin.

Wow that sucks. There are a lot of reasons I've been able to connect with all my Skyrim characters, but I doubt they'll be of any help to you. The fact that Skyrim is so different from Oblivion (and demands a different style of RP) is #1 for me. I love Smithing. I love the fact that roughly half the fauna in Skyrim is non-hostile. I love 'da cold air', and sparse landscapes. My favorite weather is an overcast, drizzly sky. Love the auroras at night, too. The combat in Skyrim is more engaging, imo, and the fact that the magic system is not as fleshed means my character actually needs to think to survive, even if he/she is high-leveled.

Everybody in this thread has provided some good answers, too. I tend to choose skills & spells and stick to them, to some extent (just as you said). When I get my PC I'll definitely be checking out that Character Overhaul mod Grits just spoke about. Matter of fact, let me stick that info in my 'Modding Notepad folder' before I forget.

[mirocu]

You already have your PC, Renee! It´s what you play Sims on

[Grits]

You know, I think I’ll give Darnand a setAV makeover. He’s standing in the Hall of the Elements with zero experience points having not taken a single step out the door in his game. (Live Another Life: new member of the College.) I’ll keep the vanilla skill and attribute point totals, just assign them where they should be. Move 50 from Stamina to Magicka. Drop the base skill value from 15 to 5 for everything, put in the racial bonuses that he gets from being a Breton, and then add points back to skills according to his mage class. Oh, and give him the Apprentice sign/stone. Hmm.

[SubRosa]

You know, I think I’ll give Darnand a setAV makeover. He’s standing in the Hall of the Elements with zero experience points having not taken a single step out the door in his game. (Live Another Life: new member of the College.) I’ll keep the vanilla skill and attribute point totals, just assign them where they should be. Move 50 from Stamina to Magicka. Drop the base skill value from 15 to 5 for everything, put in the racial bonuses that he gets from being a Breton, and then add points back to skills according to his mage class. Oh, and give him the Apprentice sign/stone. Hmm.

5 seems a little low to me for starting skills. That is one thing I did not like about the Character Creation Overhaul mod, it put the minor skills too low, and majors too high. Of course it is all a matter of whatever you feel is right for how you play of course.

OTOH, the lower your initial skills are, that means the quicker you will level up at the start (it takes fewer skill uses to level up a skill when it is at a lower level), and the more perks you will get overall. If you start with a skill at 5, then you get 9 perks and level ups by the time you get to 100 (well 95 really). But if you start with a skill at 35, you only get 6 perks and level ups by the time you max it out. That is one thing I do not like about starting with skills too high. It eventually stunts your growth. The other thing being that it makes things too easy at the beginning of the game.

You have given me an idea though. Maybe start all skills at a base of 10, then add in the racial mods, and then add in a 10 point bonus to seven major skills. That way the most you will start with is going to be a 30, and probably only in one skill (I do not think any race gets a +10 bonus to more than one). Your other majors are going to be a 20 or a 25, which seems respectable. I also keep toying with starting with one perk as well.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 10 2013, 07:48 PM

[King Coin]

Oblivion had 21 skills, and I think Skyrim has 18. Maybe just choose 6 major skills? That seems a little better IMO.

[SubRosa]

Oblivion had 21 skills, and I think Skyrim has 18. Maybe just choose 6 major skills? That seems a little better IMO.

But then how can the toon I roll beat the game? Ph3Ar M3 N00bs!

Seriously though, that is a good point. I never thought of that.

[King Coin]

But then how can the toon I roll beat the game? Ph3Ar M3 N00bs!

Your game, your decision. Just something that occurred to me while reading this interesting thread.

[Colonel Mustard]

Why yes I am very classy, thank you for asking.

*Polishes monocle*

Right, I won't bother to tackle your question from a technical/how to implement viewpoint because 1) my technical knowledge is nowhere near good enough to be useful on such a front and 2) Subrosa and Grits have already done that. Instead, I'll try and answer it from a game design point of view, because it's Sunday evening, I'm slightly bored and I find this sort of thing interesting to speculate on.

The idea of class is, as well as being a method to make the oppression of the proletariat an entrenched social institution, a carryover from TES' roots in D&D, which basically serve as a 'quick and easy' way to define your character. Want a character who fights with a bow and arrow, pick the Archer class, want someone who just hits them with a big sword, pick the Warrior class, want someone who can sneakily rob others blind and get away with it scot free, pick the Banker class. In some RPGs, these classes have certain class-specific abilities as well as a specialised skill allocation; the archer might have an ability where a single shot causes massive damage, the warrior might be able to strike multiple enemies at once and the banker might be able to get enemies into crippling debt. In such games (and notably ones that are party/cooperation-based) class is an essential definer of characters and how they play.

In the TES series, however, this hasn't been the case (at least, in the ones I've played; I've never tried Arena and decided that Daggerfall could go die in a fire after I kept getting killed by rats due to the fact that my character was unaware of the concept of the z-axis). At best, classes in Morrowind and Oblivion serve as means to define how a character plays, but even then if you decide to change your mind about how to play halfway through the game then it's actually pretty easy; Morrowind somewhat locks you in by making levelling up possible only through upping your class skills, but even then it seems an obligatory gesture rather than an essential aspect of gameplay. TES games have always been removed from classes, and Skyrim going for a truly classless system is, as far as I can tell, nothing more than the next step along the path the series has been taking since Morrowind. On a semi-related note, I personally find Skyrim's levelling/perk system an elegant and well-designed one that also makes a lot more sense than the traditional, highly arbitrary Experience Point system.

"But Mustard, you charismatic and devilishly handsome rogue!" I hear you cry. "If the TES's class system is nothing more than a way to specialise a character from the get-go, why doesn't Skyrim let you select certain skill ranks to improve at the start in the manner of the Fallout series?"

This, I think, ties in to the nature of the protagonist at the start of the game. What's notable in Morrowind and Oblivion is that your character is imprisoned, that is, thrown in jail. In terms of story, the idea of classes in these games makes a great deal of sense; a person who works as a thief or a warrior or a spell-slinging mage is quite likely to run into trouble, where Uriel Septim will tell the Blades to ship them off to Morrowind or they'll meet the Big US himself. In vanilla Skyrim, however, the Dragonborn-potentate is a refugee who's trying to cross the border; they don't start the game as jail material, they start it as Shmuck McNobody. And Shmcuk McNobody isn't the type to have any kind of special skills or extraordinary abilities, oh no! They're nobody! Didn't you pay attention to their surname? Hence why you don't pick any abilities at the start; because your character is supposed to be an everyman who learns their advanced skills once they make their escape from their execution, rather than being able to swing a sword or cast advance spells or manipulate finances already. Their hero's journey starts at their escape from Helgen; that Alduin-nuked little hole in the ground isn't a halfway mark, but the very beginning.

[ghastley]

My only problem with the Skyrim way of doing it is that they didn't go all the way to a fully neutral start. Why give racial bonuses, and not class ones? The way things are, if you want a starting tilt toward two-handed, you need to pick an Orc, and for archery, a Bosmer, etc. I think I'd prefer class bias to race, but neither is necessary. If anything, the way it is now makes me select a race for some extra challenge.

I'd prefer starting on a totally level playing field, with a number of unspent perks in my pocket, to use at exit from the tutorial scenario. I.e. give me a short intro to find out what I'll need, then let me choose how to spend my signing bonus.

This post has been edited by ghastley: Nov 10 2013, 08:23 PM

[Colonel Mustard]

My only problem with the Skyrim way of doing it is that they didn't go all the way to a fully neutral start. Why give racial bonuses, and not class ones?

Because Bethesda are massive racists who's sole aim is to perpetuate negative racial stereotypes of Orcs and Khajiit

[Renee]

You already have your PC, Renee! It´s what you play Sims on

Oh duh. I meant to say "when I get ES: Anthology for PC".

[Renee]

I just thought of something OP that might help you: Character Sheets!

I've been in the habit of writing my character's info on actual paper for about 4 years, and I keep all these pages in a journal. I started this habit while playing Oblivion, actually. Here's an example:

Name: Lord Haaf-Mersey

Creation Date: October 28, 2012, 6:22 pm

Age: 28

Class: Crusader

Alignment: Lawful Good
Factions/Titles: Dawnguard / Thane of Falkreath

Skills: Sword, Shield, Running, Literacy, Warrior, Blunt Weapons, Horsemanship, Speechcraft

Spells: Heal Self, Heal Other, Light, Shield, Turn Undead, Calm, Silent Movement (Muffle), Detect Life, Detect Dead, Clairvoyance....


... as you can see, I kinda mix some old-fashioned RPG stuff into my character sheets. Anyways, after spending some time writing stuff down, I think it helps get a clue (at least) of what your character's about. It's also fun to geek out once in a while!

[Kiln]

My only problem with the Skyrim way of doing it is that they didn't go all the way to a fully neutral start. Why give racial bonuses, and not class ones?

Because Bethesda are massive racists who's sole aim is to perpetuate negative racial stereotypes of Orcs and Khajiit

Don't forget the Argonians.