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> Going to the dark side...
flowerboom
post Feb 11 2013, 08:33 PM
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Do you enjoy being evil ? Overall do you enjoy characters being evil or are you just opposed / dont enjoy the idea or playing of it

I love going to the dark side , it gives a lot just like being good does.

Also : do you think there comes a "point of no return" or can any character turn around

Do you think being a vampire makes you "bad" ?

And which people in the game / acts do you consider truely evil?
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Lopov
post Feb 11 2013, 09:06 PM
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I usually switch from good to evil... if my current charater is good, then my next will probably be evil and so forth... I'm currently at the evil side and having a lot of fun. devilsmile.gif

My character - Falador - has passed the point of no return way back if there ever was any and I don't see him going to be bright side of life. He enjoys being a Dark child, a messenger of death, a servant of Sithis. There's nothing else he can do.

I don't think vampirism makes one necessarily bad.

Truly evil - most members of the Dark Brotherhood definitely, especially Gogron, he even admits killing a child.
Apart from them none comes immediately at mind, at least not truly evil.


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mirocu
post Feb 11 2013, 09:10 PM
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No. Being evil for the sake of being evil is something I don´t understand and don´t like. To me there´s no point and I could not play such a character and enjoy it.

Lothran may not be a saint but he is a good character who helps out when he feels it´s needed and if he can. Of course, he doesn´t help evil characters tongue.gif

This post has been edited by mirocu: Feb 11 2013, 09:11 PM


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King Of Beasts
post Feb 11 2013, 09:16 PM
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I enjoy being evil when I do decide to torment the citizens of Cyrodiil.




My character isn't completely evil, but he's no messiah either. But during those brief moments if being evil, Westley stops and savors the suffering and grief around him(just kidding, the farthest my character has gone to being "evil" is stealing stuff.

My character isn't a vampire, but being a vampire doesn't mean that one is automatically "bad"

Truly evil? Some of the vampire characters in game. Mannimarco and Mancar Cameron are pretty evil too. Other than that? Nope.


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Lady Saga
post Feb 11 2013, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 11 2013, 02:33 PM) *

Do you enjoy being evil ? Overall do you enjoy characters being evil or are you just opposed / dont enjoy the idea or playing of it


Depends on the character. I've had more 'good' characters than "evil" ones. Matter of fact, back in my tabletop days, I only played good or semi-good types. It was only in 2009 with Luci Pheria that I got the true urge to play a dark character.

I gotta say I do enjoy playing evil characters. tongue.gif This is mostly because I get to do things I would never dream of doing in real-life.

QUOTE

Also : do you think there comes a "point of no return" or can any character turn around


Anybody can "turn around", but in my experience (in real-life) it's not common to see somebody who's totally mean/evil turn all-a-sudden into a saint, or vice versa. I did have one character (Renee Gade II) who was mildly bad (she was a rogue fighter with a mild habit of stealing) try to "do good". She took up Knights of the Nine. But her habits were so ingrained, she kept having to redeem herself during KotN. She tried to do good, but could not completely give up her old ways, in other words.

What's weird is my Paladin (Dyan phor a'Cauz) was a "good" person from the very start, and I NEVER had to force myself not to steal or commit assaults (etc.) when Dyan's game was active.

QUOTE

Do you think being a vampire makes you "bad" ?


Essentially it does, unless the vamp never ever drinks blood or steals health from another person. I define "evil" as the desire, means, and habit of going against the wills of others, by the way.

QUOTE

And which people in the game / acts do you consider truely evil?


I will have to think about this one. A lot of NPCs have a mixture of both good and evil. I don't consider most bandits and other such NPCs to be truly evil, for instance. They don't just attack us unprovoked, for instance; instead they often give us a chance to leave them alone.

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Feb 11 2013, 09:30 PM
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Darkness Eternal
post Feb 11 2013, 10:04 PM
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My characters are usually necromancers or vampires or werewolves. I hate playing as noble characters. For some reason it gives me a bad feeling.

My vampire characters don't consider themselves evil at all. Because they know they need to kill to sustain themselves and survive, and it's just a matter of life and death. They know innocent people die but it is a price that must be paid. Everything dies, and it's just time and method.

QUOTE
Do you think being a vampire makes you "bad" ?


Do you consider a lion is evil for stalking a man and killing him? Or a serpent waiting at the bottom of the ocean to snatch up a swimming fish? Or a wolf striking the weakest prey or the diseased one? Vampires are not so different. If they don't feed they become feral or lose their sanity and even in some cases, may fall into a coma. Of course, there are some who are extreme and cruel who feed on people while they are still alive and suffering for prolonged periods of time such as the vampires in Castle Volkihar. Also, they keep people as prisoners in their cattle cells.

My Cyrodiilic vampires are the same but less cruel. They feed on sleeping people, or seduce them into a trance/hypnotic state before draining them. In my story they have political power, and can easily transfer criminals and prisoners from jails to other locations so they can do what the Whet-Fang clan does, which is put a victim into a deep coma where they can never awake, and slowly the vampire can harvest blood from them like spiders do sometimes. They own blood-farms composed of criminals and the general threat to society. Not because they want to be heroes, but because it's more efficient to kidnap people who no one will miss than say, a noble's daughter or a prince-rich-boy.

Janus Hassildor feeds. He says he embraces his vampirism and even refers to it as a "gift" if he gives it to the player(PC only). He has the Pale Lady in his dungeon harvesting prisoners' blood to give to Rona. I am sure he also drinks blood of the criminals or sometimes his own servants while they sleep. Sybille Stentor also feeds on prisoners.

On werewolf characters: Ah. They are much the same, except they don't go around kidnapping people. They are literally wolves twice a month or on certain days and will have to hunt people to survive. There is a whole philosophical and moral issue here. Ever read "Posting of the Hunt" in the ES games? It somehow ties in with the aspect of hunting.

"In the highest aesthetic realization of the ritual, the ecstatic rapture of the kill is balanced by the Huntsman's identification with the sadness and despair of the Innocent Quarry. As in pieces the body of the innocent Hare is torn, the Huntsman reflects on the tragic imbalances of power and the cruel injustices of the world."

The truth is the world is inbalanced. There is violence everywhere. and not even the innocent can escape its wrath. Tamriel is even called "The Arena" because it is so violent. For my hard-boiled werewolves, they understand that Lycanthropy has a price. Hircine is the Daedric Lord of the Hunt, obviously, and his sphere shows no mercy to even children. Hircine is also known as "The Sacrifice of Mortals", and it's no coinscedence he hunts down creatures that represent purity such as the unicorn in Oblivion, the Spirit Bear in Bloodmoon and the White Stag in Skyrim. Or how his rituals of curing Lycanthropy has to have a sacrifice of flesh and innocence.

Werewolves are a whole different story because they sometimes have no control over their lupine form. And their natural instinct and bloodlust, guided by Hircine's power, are driven to hunting specifically men and women and children. Because in both hunting them down and devouring them, werewolves are sustaining themselves with the blood and flesh of their prey. That's why in Daggerfall and Bloodmoon you lost health periodically if you didn't feed. Or in SKyrim where only the blood of people can heal you. So they are hunting people down to survive and because it is their instinct. And that, in and of itself, is not entirely evil.

This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: Feb 11 2013, 10:05 PM


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And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
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The grass belowā€”above the vaulted sky.ā€¯
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flowerboom
post Feb 11 2013, 10:43 PM
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Well i had a character - stacy , and she was so interesting . She changed my belief that there is a "no turning back" point , she was very dramatic.



We started off as a young , pretty and optimistic young lady , decked out with silver claymore , full chainmail and the blessing of the nine divines..she was a textbook pilgrim , and my orginal intention had been for her to go through the KOTN questline

we got to anvil , the one thing she needed before her pilgrimage was a white stallion - 4000 gold!

She spent over two months in anvil working steady routines with 4 jobs AND juggling quests and free time as well . She worked as a bar maid + lived at the flowing bowl . worked as a lighthouse keeper , a cleaner for the inventius's and had a monday/saturday job at the counts arms . her free day was sundas , usally spent questing or relaxing

It was hard work , but oddly satisfying , slowly she made it and got the horse

But by the time she had her pureness had been dimmed , she had been degraded by sailors and the working class life . had done things she would of prior to arriving unacceptable , i sensed a change in her.

After that we went to the gold horse courier , and did a half-dozen jobs there . hard work but the pay was decent. But then , whilst on a inn job to the fargyll in , her stallion was savaged by a boar..suddenly it all felt so worthless ...the horse was dead barely a week after purchase.

It completly unhinged her , she went nutty for a while , she continued on foot , and when she got there ? a massacre ensured , seven people were left dead , 2 locked themselves in there room , begged for mercy but she just slaughtered them . It actually disturbed me , it was that violent.

After that she got so drunk she almost died , and ended up walking along the gold road drinking from a wine bottle...it was a very powerful scene ..i felt her sorrow and shock

She was picked up by a forester and slapped in irons and served a long sentance in anvil jail , when she got out she went to the prophet asking for a new map...she didnt get it

so she went over to the dark side, she signed up for the dark brotherhood . She got far in , enjoyed it , but the final straw came at "whodunnit" . She couldnt kill nels or the breton woman . So she unlocked the door and they all fled to highrock , where they lived the rest of their days out as happy nobles..

but like i said , she went from bad to evil to saint to good . It was a rollercoaster but finally she renounced her dark ways , intense character .

This post has been edited by flowerboom: Feb 11 2013, 10:44 PM
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Lopov
post Feb 11 2013, 10:48 PM
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That's interesting story about Stacy, flowerboom, but did you use some mods for her roleplay or was it mostly your imagination?


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flowerboom
post Feb 11 2013, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(Lopov @ Feb 11 2013, 09:48 PM) *

That's interesting story about Stacy, flowerboom, but did you use some mods for her roleplay or was it mostly your imagination?


Thank you! Nobody hardly ever says that! wub.gif

No ,i do use mods but that is all creative roleplay ie i would go to the counts arms , wait - "work" - for five hours , then add money through the console . It took a long time but i did it legitimatly .

And your writing is great smile.gif I love writing about summermist manner but your POV of neville ? Blew it out of the water for me .
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Lopov
post Feb 11 2013, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 11 2013, 10:52 PM) *

Thank you! Nobody hardly ever says that! wub.gif

No ,i do use mods but that is all creative roleplay ie i would go to the counts arms , wait - "work" - for five hours , then add money through the console . It took a long time but i did it legitimatly .


Cool, how come that I didn't remember that before? Perhaps in one of future playthroughs.

QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 11 2013, 10:52 PM) *

And your writing is great smile.gif I love writing about summermist manner but your POV of neville ? Blew it out of the water for me .


Neville was the most fun to write from his perspective because he was the most intelligent. Or so he thought. evillol.gif


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"I saw a politician the other day."
"Horrible creatures - I avoid them whenever I can."
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flowerboom
post Feb 11 2013, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE(Lopov @ Feb 11 2013, 09:56 PM) *

QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 11 2013, 10:52 PM) *

Thank you! Nobody hardly ever says that! wub.gif

No ,i do use mods but that is all creative roleplay ie i would go to the counts arms , wait - "work" - for five hours , then add money through the console . It took a long time but i did it legitimatly .


Cool, how come that I didn't remember that before? Perhaps in one of future playthroughs.

QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 11 2013, 10:52 PM) *

And your writing is great smile.gif I love writing about summermist manner but your POV of neville ? Blew it out of the water for me .


Neville was the most fun to write from his perspective because he was the most intelligent. Or so he thought. evillol.gif



I have always thought it would be funny if somebody wrote it but every guest was trying to bed them , so you get neville just happening to patrol your bed at night , and the old bat just happening to be to scared to sleep alone at night laugh.gif nono.gif

This post has been edited by flowerboom: Feb 11 2013, 11:05 PM
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Lady Saga
post Feb 12 2013, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Feb 11 2013, 04:04 PM) *

Do you consider a lion is evil for stalking a man and killing him? Or a serpent waiting at the bottom of the ocean to snatch up a swimming fish? Or a wolf striking the weakest prey or the diseased one? Vampires are not so different.


I disagree (sorry!) Animals don't have any sort of concept of what they are doing when they attack and kill, so far as if this is right or not, they are merely surviving. Good and evil does not apply to them (from their perspective) because they are not able to think and rationalize like intelligent beings are.

A wolf sees a rabbit. It's not going to stop and think "well, this is gonna hurt the rabbit if I eat it. So maybe I should not eat it". No, they can't even conceive of any of this. They merely react, and employ their strategies, which are their instincts.

An intelligent being (including a vampire) has a choice. They know what they are doing causes harm to others. Most of the time, they don't care, of course. Now there are also some vampires that don't have this super sort of intelligence. I've read about these in various books from Anne Rice to Stephen King: these vamps are more animalistic types, not much different from wolves. They merely react and survive.

But the typical vampire we see in the game? Evil. These vamps have a choice to not drink blood ever. It will not kill them to stay "dry". In fact, it makes them stronger if they avoid drinking blood (assuming they stay out of sunlight). But my new vampire character? She is evil, and I don't have problem admitting this

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Feb 12 2013, 01:08 AM
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Darkness Eternal
post Feb 12 2013, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 12 2013, 12:56 AM) *


I disagree (sorry!) Animals don't have any sort of concept of what they are doing when they attack and kill, so far as if this is right or not, they are merely surviving. Good and evil does not apply to them (from their perspective) because they are not able to think and rationalize like intelligent beings are.

A wolf sees a rabbit. It's not going to stop and think "well, this is gonna hurt the rabbit if I eat it. So maybe I should not eat it". No, they can't even conceive of any of this. They merely react, and employ their strategies, which are their instincts.

An intelligent being (including a vampire) has a choice. They know what they are doing causes harm to others. Most of the time, they don't care, of course. Now there are also some vampires that don't have this super sort of intelligence. I've read about these in various books from Anne Rice to Stephen King: these vamps are more animalistic types, not much different from wolves. They merely react and survive.

But the typical vampire we see in the game? Evil. These vamps have a choice to not drink blood ever. It will not kill them to stay "dry". In fact, it makes them stronger if they avoid drinking blood (assuming they stay out of sunlight). But my new vampire character? She is evil, and I don't have problem admitting this

Vampires are products of Daedra, and Daedra are not evil. They are considered evil by mortals, but it doesn't make them evil. I knew someone was going to bring up the intelligence debate. We had it back in the Dawnguard sections of the Bethesda forum.

Vampires have to feed just like everything else. If we humans stopped eating, we would die, wouldn't we? Or suffer from hunger. When people are hungry, they do insane things. Some people have been known to even commit cannibalism when food was scarce.

They have to constantly drink blood. Every week. If they don't, they do become stronger, but of course they sacrifice their appearance. Like the ones from Cyrodiil. If they walked around with fangs on display with a pale face looking like they just rose from the grave, people will kill them or attack them. There is no law in the Elder Scrolls that protects vampires from harm. No legal decree or document. It makes sense for some of them want to blend in to do their daily thing, that's why some of them feed to survive in society.

Now, of course, it goes into a deeper level such as sanity. When a vampire is blood-starved, some go feral. They don't have control over their frenzy and of will attack people without second though in an uncontrollable state of orgiastic abandon. So which is worse? Feeding and killing using seductive methods to calm the victim's mind(far less malicious) or ripping out their throats?

They can't simply choose not to drink blood. It's like a werewolf with the normal strain of Lycanthropy trying to choose not to transform under the full moon. They live off blood. If they don't, they may slip into a coma.

"The worst effect, of course, had to be my blood lust. My hunger would gnaw at me, and any wounds I suffered would not heal no matter how much I rested."-vampires of Illiac Bay.

"Try as I might, I cannot free myself. I cannot breach the doors! If I don't feed soon, I feel I will go mad.-Journal of Lord Lovidicus.

Vampires don't need morality to apply to them because they aren't anchored by concepts of good or evil. They are predators and mortals are often made their prey. It is what it is. Of course, people may consider them evil for that, which in my opinion(sorry ;P) is subjective. It is all relative. One man's good is another man's evil. Vice versa. I don't think vampires are evil because they kill to survive. Preserving themselves in society and by not falling into a coma or going into madness is a form of survival.


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And yet I am, and liveā€”like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass belowā€”above the vaulted sky.ā€¯
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Lady Saga
post Feb 12 2013, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Feb 11 2013, 08:22 PM) *

Vampires have to feed just like everything else. If we humans stopped eating, we would die, wouldn't we?


Yes we would, be we do not have to subsist on killing other beings nowadays just to survive. We don't have to factory farm (which I consider to be evil), we don't have to torture animals and make them live in pens or cages, and force-feed them just so we can continue to work our little jobs, drive our little cars, and play our little videogames when the day is over. And go to Costco.. .... all the trivial things we do in life. Some animals are being tortured and die just so we can continue to do all these little things. It's not right.

I don't really wanna get into a whole big debate on this because I like you DE, and I don't want this to turn into an argument like it would (for sure) at Beths' forums. I'm a vegetarian though, and one of the reasons I became a vegetarian is because one day I asked myself if I could take the life of a chicken, or a cow, or a pig, etc. I cannot do this. To me, such animals should have just as much of a chance to live a full life as we humans do.

I hear (see) what you're saying on vampires, and you make some very good points (as I expected you would) but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! I just see vamps as essentially evil beings. And I admit that I enjoy being "evil" when I'm with mine. devilindifferent.gif I actually wish Bethesda would have stepped up the reality of being a vampire a bit. I want to see NPCs struggle at the moment of blood-drinking, and get all awkward (and fearful) when my Stage 4 vampire rolls into town!

....I enjoy being a vamp with Mycharonna, but I dislike it as well in certain ways. I'm finding myself "RPing" certain moments a little too much, just like I did in Oblivion. Sigh.


This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Feb 12 2013, 03:23 PM
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flowerboom
post Feb 12 2013, 08:30 PM
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YES, lady saga is in a lore war! laugh.gif

I dont have time now but i will read both of your arguments later , no doubt dropping my own bombshell into the mess.
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mirocu
post Feb 12 2013, 08:42 PM
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Sometimes what is evil can be hard to identify. I´m a hunter myself but I really hate how they treat animals in modern farms and factories to provide us humans with food. They don´t really need to do like they do and they only do it to make as much money as they can in the shortest amount of time.

Greed. I consider that to be evil if it goes too far. My greed for finishing my game collection is something else, hopefully biggrin.gif


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Lady Saga
post Feb 13 2013, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 12 2013, 02:30 PM) *

I dont have time now but i will read both of your arguments later , no doubt dropping my own bombshell into the mess.


It's not an argument and it's not a war. It's a discussion.

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flowerboom
post Feb 13 2013, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(mirocu @ Feb 12 2013, 07:42 PM) *

Sometimes what is evil can be hard to identify. I´m a hunter myself but I really hate how they treat animals in modern farms and factories to provide us humans with food. They don´t really need to do like they do and they only do it to make as much money as they can in the shortest amount of time.

Greed. I consider that to be evil if it goes too far. My greed for finishing my game collection is something else, hopefully biggrin.gif



Yes and no

your suggesting that we get all our meat from hunting ? Thats logistically impossible .

Its the only way they can feed the demand , think how much meat is consumed per sec and how much hunting could produce . Look im not digging you im a conflicted meat - eater myself but realistically it not possible .

So i think saying "they dont really need to do like they do" is , for you prehaps , viable but for a couple billion people living in cities wanting meat ?( to much , greedy chops) i think you know the answer

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flowerboom
post Feb 13 2013, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 12 2013, 11:24 PM) *

QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 12 2013, 02:30 PM) *

I dont have time now but i will read both of your arguments later , no doubt dropping my own bombshell into the mess.


It's not an argument and it's not a war. It's a discussion.


dont get sniffy , its just a figure of speech

"lore war" - thought you would of got it wink.gif
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ghastley
post Feb 13 2013, 04:19 PM
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The game is really missing the "unintentionally evil" characters that you get in real life. The dictators who take control to try and create order from the chaos they perceived, or to rescue the people from the previous misguided hero. They think they're doing good, but it doesn't work out that way.

There's plenty of opportunity for that. Mazoga, for example could easily have turned into a major vigilante obsessively hunting down the former members of Mogens Wind-Shifter's gang, or anyone she suspects has a connection. Let her get a suspicion that Count Caro was bankrolling them, and see what happens.

Terentius Regulus could have been that kind of character, trying to rid Bravil of the Skooma trade, but instead persecuting the group he mistakenly thinks is responsible.

That kind of character gives the player choices in how to deal with them. They can simply eliminate them, or they can attempt to redirect them along their original "good" path they strayed from. But choices make for more complicated quests, which is why they probably don't get produced.

The DB quest line could do with a bit more of that ambiguity, too. It starts off well enough, with any friendly fire accident triggering LL's visit, and the first victim being a rapist/murderer who's got away with it, but it was written for the intentionally evil character to find he's unintentionally doing good, instead of the other way round. I think it would have been possible to have it work both ways, with just a little more effort.


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