Waiting4Oblivion Parliament: The Second Runner Options

[Alexander]

Well said Channler.

Now to the point of me "supposedly" being insulted. You are insulting me when you speak badly about, my family, my country, or the people I respect( president, fellow soldiers, friends ect). Thats why i have been insulted. Its the meaning behind the words Alex. Not the words themselves.

then I hope you don't het into too many discussion Jona, as I'm certain you'll find yourself insulted constantly then.

Now to the Gay marriage issue. Lets talk about that and stay on it untill someone wishes to begin another topic. There is to be no use of Religion or "its this presidents fault" in this topic. Understood? Good.

Stargelman: bad. You're not the one setting the policy of this forum.
Gay marriage, Good or bad, legal or illegal, why or why not? Begin.

I've seen this discussed without using religion and it's not complete. simply not fair to those opposed it.


so agreed with star, Jona you're free to participate here, but don't try and dictate the course of the thread as you've not such authority!

[Kiln]

Let our arguments here stay here, as in please don't dislike me outside of here for what I have written here.

I don't like the idea of gay marriage myself, I just don't think it is right to have same sex partners, sorry to offend anyone but that's just how I feel and how I will always feel about that matter, you may feel differently and thats okay but my opinion will never change. And with the war, Bush had bad intelligence in this war, as there were no "weapons of mass destruction" as he was informed, he believed Saddam was hiding the weapons so he took us into war to find them. He should have listened to the inspectors that never found anything there in the first place in my opinion. He acted too quickly off of the poor intelligence he had, thats what I blame bush for. Finally, about the interrogation techniques I read a while back, they do what they can to get the intelligence, when an American is captured and shot in the head and a video of it is sent out, by terrorists, you think that interrogation was okay? Do you think their people whined that the interrogation was bad? Us troops do what they have to to get intelligence that's how it's always been and probably will always be.

Don't hold this against me outside of this thread people.

This post has been edited by Kiln: Jul 22 2005, 07:32 PM

[Channler]

Your a good guy Klin =)

Since I was five I have been "training" for war. Yes that sounds odd, but that summer day when I went out to that airfield in nowheresville Texas and saw the Blue Angels fly. I knew it, I knew that my job in life was to protect those I hold dear to me.

Since that fatefull day, I have molded my life around the military, and gone out of my to try and better boost my outlook on not just america problems and culture, but world culture too.

Soldiers now are not just the "baby killers" that alot of people think they are. I mean the soldiers in Iraq are fighting a war, helping to rebuild a country, and also helping with the local populace.

Remeber what happened about a week ago? Where the US soldiers were handing out candy and toys to the little children and the terrorists killed not only the soldier, but over 25 school children. I was outraged by the lack of response to this, if the US drove into town and shot at a building because there were terrorists in there and several children were JUST wounded.. There woulda of been an international outroar... simple question why the former, and no action from every nation that is so caught up in saving the populace of Iraq and what not?....

Politics.. I hate it, that why after my militry career I plan do

[jonajosa]

Kiln has a point. The world goes up in outrage at America because a guy got interrogated using extreme methods but when a American soldier has his head cut off live on the internet the world shrugs its shoulders and says "Another has died for nothing!" ...Shame. The terrorists already have control of Europe and Asia.

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 23 2005, 12:53 AM

[Kiln]

Sad that people care more about our enemies and the way that they are interrogated than they do about our own men dying. Rather than try to help pay for better equipment and supplies for our troops politicians would rather spend money on trying to get games like GTA off of store shelves, I think it's pitiful that our important politicians would rather complain about video games than try and actually be helpful with something. I respect all of your opinions so try to understand mine on the subject.

[Konji]

I used to imagine Jona as a happy and cheery guy, now I imagine him to be like....22 with a flat top cut and waving a big ol' American flag, while standing beside the white house....with Bush's autograph.

[Kiln]

I haven't read all of this thread so I want to know who supports the war, who doesn't, and why. Myself, I don't support the war but I support all of our boys serving in the war. I generally think the war was a bad idea and that our president should have gotten better intel before sending us to war. Bush acted on what he thought not what he knew, and that is where I stand.

[jonajosa]

I used to imagine Jona as a happy and cheery guy, now I imagine him to be like....22 with a flat top cut and waving a big ol' American flag, while standing beside the white house....with Bush's autograph.      

... You imagine too much. I would never do such a thing. If you knew me personally you would see that I am actually... very quiet, calm, and nice.

Though I have to admit being here just for a few months has changed me. But don't ever be afraid or hateful of me because I defend what I think is right.

[Chumbaniya]

Argh! Too much to try and reply to since I haven't bothered checking the thread in ages.

I have to agree with Milanius' big ol' post about how he cannot believe his "cat-juggling" eyes about the way Jona talks about war and his attitude to other countries. For someone who is (as far as I can tell) in a fairly responsible position in the military, that kind of attitude is doubling worrying. What shocked me most was "bring it on" with regards to chinese, when a war between China and the US would undoubtedly be one of the biggest conflicts ever. China may be communist (and in my eyes this is not something necessarily bad, though others may disagree) but that does not warrant relishing a huge war with it.

And to Kiln - my stance on the wars in discussion here (Iraq and Afghanistan) I believe neither had sufficient justification. I feel that war with Afghanistan was not worth finding one man, and that the reasons behind the Iraq war were completely fabricated (WMDs? What WMDs? Ah, lets just say that we wanted to topple an evil dictator.). I also believe that both wars have been instrumental in causing an increase in global terrorism - attacks on islamic nations will undoubted provide ammunition for those extremists wanting to convince muslims to commit terrorism attacks.

Oh, and on a side note, the train station which my dad uses every day (Birmingham Snow-Hill) was evacuated recently after a bomb scare. An off-duty police officer had seen a man with a suspicious package acting strangely, but it turned out that he was completely innocent. It just goes to show how nervous the british public have already become since te London attacks.

[Fuzzy Knight]

And to Kiln - my stance on the wars in discussion here (Iraq and Afghanistan) I believe neither had sufficient justification. I feel that war with Afghanistan was not worth finding one man, and that the reasons behind the Iraq war were completely fabricated (WMDs? What WMDs? Ah, lets just say that we wanted to topple an evil dictator.). I also believe that both wars have been instrumental in causing an increase in global terrorism - attacks on islamic nations will undoubted provide ammunition for those extremists wanting to convince muslims to commit terrorism attacks.

I agree about your opinion there. A friend of me and my father is in active duty down in Afghanistan right now, he will be there for around 6 months having a central part commanding the Norwegian Troops... I most say that they have done so much destruction without finding Osama, and now we have several terrorist acts around the world where Al-Quaida(sp?) say they are responisble for.. So I agree that it has done a increasment in the global terrorism, just look over the past 5 years how much terror there have been around the world. And that Blair tells the English people to go on with their lives after the first bombing and then a week later it almost happend again..

[Channler]

Look guys (and gals)..

Its gonna get worse, before it gets better

Would you of sided with Churchill in the early mornings before of WWII?

[Burnt Sierra]

Oh, and on a side note, the train station which my dad uses every day (Birmingham Snow-Hill) was evacuated recently after a bomb scare. An off-duty police officer had seen a man with a suspicious package acting strangely, but it turned out that he was completely innocent. It just goes to show how nervous the british public have already become since te London attacks.

Just to add to this, the man they shot in the tube has turned out to be an innocent Brazilian. Now they were very quick to jump in front of the camera's and make statements the other day praising the police for their quick action in taking him down, I seriously doubt they'll be quite so eager to make statements now. What can they say? "Oops." Another example of flawed intelligence.

"In the immediate aftermath, the Met said the man had come under police observation after he "had emerged from a house that was itself under observation". His "clothing and his behaviour at the station" fuelled police suspicions and he was killed after fleeing the plainclothes officers when they challenged him.

But yesterday's statement said only that the man had "emerged from a block of flats under surveillance", suggesting that he may have been entirely innocent. Later the Met again amended their account, saying the man had emerged from a house in Tulse Hill. "

Anyone who wants to read about it, here's a couple of links.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/s...1535246,00.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article301232.ece

[Burnt Sierra]

One more quote for you, and I'm just posting it. I'm not entirely sure what I think of this yet. In many ways I guess this is logical, but I think a lot of people will be afraid that this is just the beginning.

"France Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy has announced a crackdown on suspected militants, with an increase in funds for video surveillance and stepped-up monitoring of radical groups and individuals.

Italy The government approved a package of new anti-terror measures, including taking saliva samples from suspects for DNA tests, the power to detain suspects for up to 24 hours without charges and to expel terrorist suspects from Italy rapidly. There has also been heightened security at Italy's ports, and on its railway and underground networks.

New York Random bag searches by armed police have begun outside the city's subway stations. Anyone who refuses a search is not allowed on the subway. The vast majority of New Yorkers have accepted the new rules as a necessary precaution but some civil liberties groups say the move will lead to racial profiling. Extra security staff have been introduced on tunnels and bridges connecting Manhattan to the rest of the city. Elsewhere in New York, random searches will be introduced tomorrow on train and ferry networks and the monorail link to JFK airport. Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff has put all of the nation's mass transit agencies on a state of high alert.

Australia The authorities have turned to Britain for advice on how to prevent terrorist attacks. Australian security officials are in London examining the recent attacks and will return home with recommendations. However, the Australian authorities are already tightening security on public transport and cracking down on bookshops in Sydney and Melbourne that sell Islamic literature which preaches jihad against the West.

Germany is planning to install CCTV in its subways while Poland and Hungary will beef up security measures on transport. In Denmark, identified by one terrorist group claiming responsibility as a possible next target, Deputy Prime Minister Bendt Bendtsen announced extra security at airports, rail and underground stations, ports and embassies. Officials at shopping malls, amusement parks and stadiums were told to tighten security and be vigilant. "

[Wolfie]

Just to add to this, the man they shot in the tube has turned out to be an innocent Brazilian. Now they were very quick to jump in front of the camera's and make statements the other day praising the police for their quick action in taking him down, I seriously doubt they'll be quite so eager to make statements now. What can they say? "Oops." Another example of flawed intelligence.

"In the immediate aftermath, the Met said the man had come under police observation after he "had emerged from a house that was itself under observation". His "clothing and his behaviour at the station" fuelled police suspicions and he was killed after fleeing the plainclothes officers when they challenged him.

But yesterday's statement said only that the man had "emerged from a block of flats under surveillance", suggesting that he may have been entirely innocent. Later the Met again amended their account, saying the man had emerged from a house in Tulse Hill. "

Anyone who wants to read about it, here's a couple of links.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/s...1535246,00.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article301232.ece

That is messed up on so many levels. And the poor guys family can't even have an open casket funeral for him because they pumped 5 rounds into his head at point blank range

[Stargazey]

I want one person, ONE PERSON, to tell me why the Iraq War was justified. Tell me, why was it all right to kill 50,000 civillians? Why was it to leave people without electricity, water or jobs? Why was it all right to topple a regime (an abusive one, yes), and put a puppet government in place?

This post has been edited by Stargazey: Jul 25 2005, 01:09 AM

[Kiln]

Well in my opinion the war in Iraq was not justified. It shouldn't have happened, Mr. George W. was acting on inaccurate intelligence when he started the long drawn out war. I was with him on his decision to enter Afghanistan and search for the terrorists but his decision to enter Iraq was simply wrong in my opinion. Now, president Bush says that we have succeeded in freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam and his regime, but that wasn't his initial reson for entering Iraq in the first place it was the so called "Weapons of mass destruction." which thus far don't exist. He changes his reasons to try and keep a good appearance in front of the American people, after all he is the president and he doesn't want to look like a moron...but in my opinion it's too late. Sorry if I offend anyone but thats how I feel.

I've said this countless times but I'll say it again, I support the troops but I don't support the war.

[gamer10]

You don't offend me, I mean I hear this a lot about my president.

However you said that the original reason we went in there wasn't to free the Iraqi people, guess what. You're obviously right.

However, we did bring them Democracy. If you'd rather them be under the rule of Saddam Hussein right now, say aye.

*eyes dart around*

Every ruler changes to adjust with the current times, except Mr. Saddam. He goes and hides in a hole.

It shouldn't have happened, Mr. George W. was acting on inaccurate intelligence when he started the long drawn out war. 

He started World War 2?

This post has been edited by gamer10: Jul 25 2005, 02:16 AM

[Stargazey]

Do they have democracy? Do they really? With political figures being either: bombed, assassinated, kidnapped or otherwise hurt, do they have a democracy? As long as we are there, civil war will continue.

[Channler]

Dude, holy crap, 50k?! I think your numbers are WAY off there even by liberal interpritation

25915 is the max number and largest portion of the dead has been cause by terrorists

[jonajosa]

Some words of truth for yall. The people in the middle east have been fighting for over two thousand years. They were fighting before we came in there and they will be fighting when we leve there. It is not the fault of another country that war has broke out. Tensions have always been high and they will stay that way untill the world blows up. There will never be world peace mostly because of nations that cannot control their own people. Africa, Middle east, Areas around Austrailia, south eastern europe, asia, North america ect. War is a constantly happening thing and it cannot be stopped untill someone destroys the world or kills all its inhabitants.

As for a puppet goverment? That gave me a laugh. The chances of a muslim(espically one with power such as Iraqs leaders) letting a american tell him what to do and what laws to make are almost zero. True we are lending a helping hand to guide them along their tough journey and it may bring peace for awhile in that country but as I have stated above a few years down the line war will erupt and Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria, Israel and all the oter countries will be throw into another large scale war. And America will be involved( maybe not directly but we will most definately be giving supplies to our allies over there) since Israel is under our wing. Trust me, they want o stay under that wind too. Where are their tank and airplane parts going to come from if we leave? Where are their Trainers going to be? They need our help but they wont admit it. Only in the most despreate time will the most unlikely allies come out of the dust to fight.

Such as the people here. They protest sometimes and claim they hate us but when one of their own people decides he wants to blow up some school or office building those people are the first to come running for help.

Reason for war with Iraq? WMDs. Have we found them? No. Will we ever find them? Doubtful. Now that thats out of the way lets ask this.

Should we be here now? Yes. Why? Because we came here to do a job. Not just to find those WMDs but also to help these totured people. The main goal may have been to unseat Saddam and disarm him but there are smaller goals that have come into play when some of the main objectives didn't work out. Help build the economy back up, restore public peace, build hospitals and schools ect ect. IT goes on and on. And guess what! Almost all of those goals are done and the possibility of leaveing Iraq is drawing nearer. Then all the pointless "UN soldiers and peace keepers" can come in and try to keep the peace that we have established.

Another thing that really cracks me up is when I hear about it is the UN trying to do stuff. They don't give their soldiers ammo when they go into a country, their soldiers get killed because they have orders never to engage. Examples, Rawanda: 10 UN soldiers were shot at pointblank range while "trying" to stop 700 militia from coming through a base gate. No ammo and no orders to fight back because the leaders are scared that the fighting might escalate because of them.

Somalia: UN troops are sent in and told to establish checkpoints at most of the intersections in the city. 70 soldiers dies that day because they were attacked by small groups of militia and because they had NO WEAPONS. Thats somthing I still cant get over. Can you properly establish a checkpoint in a hostile country without weapons? No.

Nigeria: Again UN troops were killed because of the order to not engage the enemy surrounding them. They were overwhelmed and... lets just say "killed" because someone thought that throwig away the lives of theirt men would reestablish peace and stability.

Hati: Most resent I think. They get shot at everyday and from what i've heard the monthly death rate of UN soldiers and officials is 10. Ten people get killed every month. And what do the commanders do about the killings in their forces? Nothing. They sit there and wait for a major protest to begin before the pullout night sticks and tear gas to do anything. But I think somthing they would have learned by now is that all third world countries are not made up of stupid people. They know not to start a riot because the UN could possibly kill their own men and women. Small tactics are what their using and what they'll keep using untill the UN has to either pull out or send in a couple hundred more people to get killed.

Main reasons for the Iraq war may vary but the reasons we are there now stays the same. To help. and thats the only reason some of you should need. Thats all I needed. Heck I want to help those kids learn to read, I want to help that guy restore his house. I want to thelp that woman get her buisness back up and running. Thats what I want. To help.

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 26 2005, 12:40 AM