Waiting4Oblivion Parliament: The Second Runner Options

[Konji]

I don't see how Bush can win. It is not his fault that his intelligance was wrong. What would happen if he just put up his hands and said 'I'm sorrry' to the American public? What can he do?

[Channler]

Bush doesn't have to win, he has already won.

The USA, North America, World have to win now. Being nice to these people are not going to work, it saddens me to say that but violence is a dictators key to power. (I'd now, I've been studying stuff liek this)

What is you alls solution to these probs? Pull out of the Middle East? Let those that have died be shamed with the INHUMANITY of humanity?

And at last...

America loves a winner.. don't expect us do be out of Iraq anytime soon, heh even if we have a Liberal Prez next.

[Kiln]

I think if the president really wants to help in this war he should suit up and go out with the soldiers. But maybe he would get in trouble for Absence With Out Leave(AWOL) like he did years ago. BTW if you want some interesting Bush click the link below. Google AWOL and Bush and you get tons of interesting stuff, but none for Bush supporters.
George W. Bush, really helping Americans?

[Chumbaniya]

But Ithink somthing they would have learned by now is that all third world countries ar made up of stupid people.

I just had to pull this quote out of jonajosa's post - is this a typo (missing out the word "not") or are you really saying you think that everyone in third world countries are stupid? If you are, then... no words I can say could ever express how contemptible that sentiment is.

Anyway, on to the rest of your big post - you really need to take a look at some of the issues being addressed here from a non-american view. I know it's natural to see everything from the viewpoint of your own country, but a lot of what you say is making the assumption that america is better than all the other countries, that it has the best government, and that it's way of doing things is always best, and naturally this is simply not true. In the world of international affairs, no country is ever wholy right because every country looks to engineer the situation which is best for itself (which is only natural, as each country is bound to look out for its own people). The assumption of US superiority is leading to all kinds of other assumptions, such as the assumption that the UN method is wrong, and that the state of affairs after the Iraq war is better than it was before the war.

In the interests of getting a balanced viewpoint, thinking about the issues from the point of view of other involved parties is very valuable.

[Burnt Sierra]

I just had to pull this quote out of jonajosa's post - is this a typo (missing out the word "not") or are you really saying you think that everyone in third world countries are stupid? If you are, then... no words I can say could ever express how contemptible that sentiment is.

My viewpoints and Jona's obviously differ, however in the interests of fairness, I'll quote the whole passage, not just take on sentence from it.

"Hati: Most resent I think. They get shot at everyday and from what i've heard the monthly death rate of UN soldiers and officials is 10. Ten people get killed every month. And what do the commanders do about the killings in their forces? Nothing. They sit there and wait for a major protest to begin before the pullout night sticks and tear gas to do anything. But Ithink somthing they would have learned by now is that all third world countries ar made up of stupid people. They know not to start a riot because the UN could possibly kill their own men and women. Small tactics are what their using and what they'll keep using untill the UN has to either pull out or send in a couple hundred more people to get killed."

I think, or at least the way I'm taking it to mean, is he's saying that they aren't stupid because they know not to cause riots. If that is a typo Jona though, I would suggest fixing it, because that could certainly be read the wrong way. And if you do mean it, and I really hope you don't, may I enquire why? It's certainly a blanket statement to make about a whole region, which is something you've been very vocal about expressing your disapproval about, when you believe others are doing it. However, I do hope and believe that it is just a typo.

Oh, and can I just say Chumbaniya, that was the kind of post we've been hoping to see here. That was very well put, and should hopefully lead to the kind of debate that might be productive. We don't want or expect everyone's views to be the same, but that kind of tone is helpful to provoking a rational debate, rather than outrage from opposing viewpoints.

[jonajosa]

I just had to pull this quote out of jonajosa's post - is this a typo (missing out the word "not") or are you really saying you think that everyone in third world countries are stupid? If you are, then... no words I can say could ever express how contemptible that sentiment is.

Anyway, on to the rest of your big post - you really need to take a look at some of the issues being addressed here from a non-american view . I know it's natural to see everything from the viewpoint of your own country, but a lot of what you say is making the assumption that america is better than all the other countries, that it has the best government, and that it's way of doing things is always best, and naturally this is simply not true. In the world of international affairs, no country is ever wholy right because every country looks to engineer the situation which is best for itself (which is only natural, as each country is bound to look out for its own people). The assumption of US superiority is leading to all kinds of other assumptions, such as the assumption that the UN method is wrong, and that the state of affairs after the Iraq war is better than it was before the war.

In the interests of getting a balanced viewpoint, thinking about the issues from the point of view of other involved parties is very valuable.

It was typo and it will be fixed after I say this. The assumption that you think that we believe america is better than everyone elses country is wrong. Tell me what exactly made you think in that post that I am saying that my country is better than yours? Was it the pointing out of the UNs drastic mistakes or was it the fact that Israel and other countries need our help in difficult times?

But im glad you beileve America is not better than your or anyone elses country because now the claim of american ignorance and stuck up attitude cannot be used as a valid excuse for going to war. We are no better or worse than anyone else out there. As many of you have said, we are all the same.

PLease rethink your last words. Would you perfer thousands dying every month or just a dozens or so every month? Those are the only options for you. Thousands or dozens? Are we to just pick up ans leave? Is that what you all want? Do any of you think you could come in here and finish the job for us?

So if you live in england, romania, austrailia, japan ect I would suggest concentrateing your efforts on your country about pullin gout when the time comes. Telling us to leave will not do anything but telling your own country to might. In other words, "take a look at some of the issues being addressed here from a non-european view" I would suggest the same for you. Not one of us on either side has taken the chance to just spend a few days or hours to explore each other motives and reasons. That is what confuses me. Do you or anyone have even a close idea of whats going on here? I can say the same for me, DO I know exactly whats going on in your country? No. But what I do know is that you wont every see me out on the streets complaining about another counrties decision. As you have stated. We are bound to look after our selves and I plan on doing so unless there is a good reason to go butting in on a foriegn policy. What is any of yalls reason to go butting in on us? Is Iraq your problem? Is it somthing that could threaten the very life of you or anyone else? We thought so and thats why were here.

Oh, and can I just say Chumbaniya, that was the kind of post we've been hoping to see here. That was very well put, and should hopefully lead to the kind of debate that might be productive. We don't want or expect everyone's views to be the same, but that kind of tone is helpful to provoking a rational debate, rather than outrage from opposing viewpoints.

And that is what I have done. No yelling just strait forward talk.

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 26 2005, 12:39 AM

[Dantrag]

I honestly don't agree with the war, seeing as we have a lot of domestic problems that need to be resolved before we go into other countries.

However, now that we are there, we might as well doo all we can for the people in Iraq. When you start something, finish it and finish it right. that's my opinion.

And while I may not be in agreement with the war, I am in total support of our soldiers. they are out there defending innocent people, and the media makes them out to be horrible people. It's a shame.

[Kiln]

I don't think that the reason we are still in Iraq is wrong, I like the idea of America helping an opressed people. I don't think the American troops should be pulled from duty in Iraq though the media does make the soldiers look bad, I know this. On television we see how many civilians the Americans have killed but look at it like this, how many civilians would have been killed by invaders if the U.S. troops weren't there?

The media tends to show the bad things rather than the good, we will never see horrible things some of the insurgents have done, like I watched a video where U.S. soldiers handed out dolls to children the same nice guys handing out dolls to children were all shot and killed moments later.

We won't see the horrible way captured Americans are tortured and killed, we will see the way Americans interrogate prisoners(Its not pretty but its not half as bad as the way American troops are tortured before they are killed. We won't see the horrible things done to our soldiers in the news, we'll only see the things the Americans have done to them.

We won't see the happy Iraqi citizens thanking soldiers we will see the ones rioting in the streets and firefights breaking out with civilians in the middle, so yes the media definately makes U.S. soldiers out to be bad when in reality they are no worse than you or me.

[Dantrag]

I'm going to change the topic, because this one has been drilled into the ground. Twice.

Abortion. What do you think?

I think abortion should be illegal. I don't understand why the left side of this issue thinks it should be the woman's choice because it's her body. It was her choice to make the baby, so she should take responsibility. (I agree with the exceptions for rape, so don't bring that against me)

Model conversatin between me and an extreme liberal I know :

Him :"It's her baby and it's her body."

Me : "But there is another person inside her body."

"Well, if it's inside her body, it's hers."

"Okay. you're in my house. You are now mine."

"That's not what I'm saying."

"Same concept."

"...."

This post has been edited by Dantrag: Jul 26 2005, 04:30 PM

[Kiln]

Hahaha! Sorry, your example is funny but I get the point. I feel the same way about the subject, I think people should have to have the baby(Excluding rape victims.) they should have to live with the things they have done.

[Channler]

I'm sorry, I'm very anti-abortion... even if in the case of rape

Grant it, the child is... err well i don't know how to put it. It wasnt the ladies fault, but why should a child be punished for something his father had done?

Theres always adoption.

And I can't say I know how it feels, but I've been told (unfortunately by a friend.. she also has a child too) that an abortion hurts just as bad as giving birth

[Chumbaniya]

Oh, and can I just say Chumbaniya, that was the kind of post we've been hoping to see here. That was very well put, and should hopefully lead to the kind of debate that might be productive. We don't want or expect everyone's views to be the same, but that kind of tone is helpful to provoking a rational debate, rather than outrage from opposing viewpoints.

While I'm not going to dwell on the last topic (be patient, the rest of the post will be about abortion) I'd like to say thanks Burntsierra, and I understand exactly what you mean about rational debate - while it can be sometimes tempting to do so, the idea here is not to try and destroy the other person's viewpoint, it's just to present your own opinion and give the reasoning behind your opinion, and also to challenge or question the reasoning behind other people's opinions. One thing that we need to make sure we avoid (and we have done, so far as I know) is attacking the person behind the view rather than the view itself. No doubt we will change some of our opinions about other forum members through this discussion, but we should focus on the ideas rather than the people. Why am I even typing all this sensible rubbish? It's got nothing to do with the debate! I'm going to stop now.

Anywho.....

Abortion. It might seem strange, but I seem to be entirely lacking in strong opinions on this subject. I'm quite happy for individuals to make their own decisions about it. I'm not of the school that believe that an egg becomes a "life" as soon as it is fertilised, and I think that it is not a terrible injustice for a mother to have her unborn baby aborted. It certainly doesn't constitute murder, in my books.

What I'm more interested in, to be honest, is the debate that underlies the debate about abortion - when does a fertilised egg become a "person"? There are a couple of odd ways of thinking about this that could be interesting (I'm just playing devils advocate here, I don't believe in either of these):

Firstly, if the child is unborn and still part of the mother's body, isn't it a part of her rather than a separate entity? Wouldn't having it aborted be the same as having a limb amputated, for example? (Again I stress that these are not my views, they are just designed to provoke debate)

Secondly, what if we counted "life" to be something that is conscious of it's own existence? In that case, even after being born a baby would not be counted as "alive" for a while as it takes a couple of years for it develop a long term memory necessary for it to have a consistent consciousness.

[DoomedOne]

To me, I don't draw the line of life at conception, because technically sperm is alive, and thousands of sperm die everyday just from being unused. By some random chance however, every so often a lucky sperm lands itself in an egg, so that it can further grow to become a human being. I do not consider a fertilized egg a human being, though it is alive. I do not consider a fetus a human being, though it is alive.

Here's the biggest reason why so many people, even most republics, don't like the idea of making abortion illegal. It used to be illegal. We tried that out, when it was illegal. Hundreds of young girls were getting infected and dying because they were trying to abort their pregnancy by other means. Teenage girls ARE human beings, and they do stupid things, its part of being a teenager. You can't blame them for being pregnant, or for not wanting their parents to know. If we made abortion illegal again, we'd go back to the time when hundreds of young girls were getting sick and dying because they were trying to get their embryos/feti aborted and they couldn't go to a certified clinic in order to do so.

Morally, I don't know, my Dad says every women he's known who's gotten an abortion was left with regret. Me, I'd prefer adoption, it seems like a much better alternative, and in the situation I got a girl pregnant I'd push for adoption. Nonetheless, we have to leave the option open.

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Jul 27 2005, 03:54 AM

[Dantrag]

Teenage girls ARE human beings, and they do stupid things, its part of being a teenager.  You can't blame them for being pregnant,

Saying you can't blame a teenage girl for having sex, just because of her age is like saying I can't blame Hitler for killing Jews just because he was crazy. A teenage girl is more than old enough to know what can happen from having sex.

It's their fault for being pregnant, because they decided to have sex. And since they ARE human beings, they should be responsible for their stupid mistakes like human beings.

[DoomedOne]

Saying you can't blame a teenage girl for having sex, just because of her age is like saying I can't blame Hitler for killing Jews just because he was crazy. A teenage girl is more than old enough to know what can happen from having sex.

It's their fault for being pregnant, because they decided to have sex. And since they ARE human beings, they should be responsible for their stupid mistakes like human beings.

Okay, so punishment for their "mistake" is to be forced the shame of their parents, and a life of burden raising a child, so their entire future can just waste away. The alterative: they die because they assume the person they're going to knows how to give an abortion, and of course they're wrong because there's no way to tell if somepne is certified for an illegal act. That's not the way teenage society works. I'm a teenager, and like most intelligent teenagers my age, I carry a couple condoms in my wallet. I have never used them but I do go to parties where there is alcohol served and like any other crappy town that most people live in, there's nothing to do if your teenager except go to parties, and at most parties there is alcohol, and it takes a whole lot of will-power to resist the urges of your friends to drink alcohol, will-power most people don't have.

People will get pregnant that don't want to get pregnant, there's absolutely nothing we can do about that, what we can do, however, is stop them from seeing someone with a rusty clothes hanger and give them the opportunity to have a safe abortion. It's the cure to what has been a long problem, and yet people still want to illegalize it.

[Dantrag]

Just so you know, I am no adult - I am a teen as well. Just want that understood so it doesn't seem like a parent speaking here. That being said -

Okay, so punishment for their "mistake" is to be forced the shame of their parents, and a life of burden raising a child, so their entire future can just waste away.

No. As you said, adoption. If I was a female, I would rather face the shame of my parents than live with the fact that I had killed a human being (one that was my own child, no less.)

The alterative: they die because they assume the person they're going to knows how to give an abortion, and of course they're wrong because there's no way to tell if somepne is certified for an illegal act.

Another example of stupidity. Ignorance is tolerable, not blatant stupididty. Most people have the sense not to let someone with a "rusty coat-hanger" poke around inside them.

That's not the way teenage society works.  I'm a teenager, and like most intelligent teenagers my age, I carry a couple condoms in my wallet.  I have never used them but I do go to parties where there is alcohol served and like any other crappy town that most people live in, there's nothing to do if your teenager except go to parties, and at most parties there is alcohol, and it takes a whole lot of will-power to resist the urges of your friends to drink alcohol, will-power most people don't have.

Honestly, I go to parties, and rarely drink. And when I do drink, it is never enough to get drunk. I usually end up being the one babysitting drunk girls so taht the entire thing we are speaking of never happens.

And you are using the lack of willpower as justification for having sex when you aren't ready - it isn't.

If your friends pressure you to drink when you don't want to, I would suggest finding new friends, no offense.

People will get pregnant that don't want to get pregnant, there's absolutely nothing we can do about that, what we can do, however, is stop them from seeing someone with a rusty clothes hanger and give them the opportunity to have a safe abortion.  It's the cure to what has been a long problem, and yet people still want to illegalize it.

No, there's nothing we can do to keep them from getting pregnant - that's the woman/girl's job. like NOT HAVING SEX IF YOU DON'T WANT A BABY!

Abortion is no cure for anything, other than morality, which seems to be considered a disease as of late. What gives the woman the right to take a life to save a life? Or a doctor? Or me or you?

This post has been edited by Dantrag: Jul 27 2005, 05:37 AM

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

Hmm something caught my attention here, I normally avoid participating in this thread.

I am with agreement that abortion should be illegal. The argument you put up is I must say a commonplace example. But I think that any teenage girl that gets an unwanted pregnancy should suffer the consequences of that action. If such a thing occurs becuase of drunkeness than I believe the girl deserves to suffer the consequences.

Drinking and teenagers seems to be an accepted part of society, though it should not be. If you drink, thats fine by me. But I as a teenager don't drink. And yes it is hard at times to resist the pressure put on by peers. but I do it. and so can other teens. So using the drunk teenagers excuse is to me a very poor one. if anything anyone involved should suffer the consequences of such actions. And I am glad dantrag that you take the role of protecting those drunk girls that would make stupid mistakes and be taken advantage of. very admirable thing to do.

hope that made some sense lol.

[Kiln]

Hmm something caught my attention here,  I normally avoid participating in this thread.

Glad you decided to participate, its always good to see another opinion.

Back on topic, I also Believe abortion should be illegal. I don't think that teenage girls should be having sex if they don't want to suffer the repercussions of their actions for the rest of their lives.

The line must be drawn somewhere though, and I draw that line in rape. If a teenage girl is forced to have sex against her will, do you hold her responsible? Do you force her to concieve a child that will have no father? I say no, I don't believe a girl should be forced to have a child if the situation was not at their own will.

However, I don't believe that a child should be aborted because a girl got drunk and had sex. Obviously if they can't make good decisions while intoxicated then they shouldn't be drinking in the first place. Keep in mind though that it is just as much the males fault as the females they don't get themselves pregnant you know.

Mostly the reason I'm against abortion is the fact that the embryo would develope into a person if it were left to grow, aborting it in my opinion is just as bad as murder. Thats just how I feel about the matter, please don't hold it against me outside of this thread people.

[Dantrag]

A quote from the Ramsey Colloquium (google it if you don't know what it is) in '95 -

“The [embryo] is human, it will not articulate itself into some other kind of animal. Any being that is human is a human being. If it is objected that, at five or fifteen days the embryo does not look like a human being, it must be pointed out that this is precisely what a human being looks like – and what each of us looked like – at five or fifteen days of development.”

(used that quote in a paper on the immorality of embryonic stem cell research.)

A side note - I do so love discussions such as these, and the members of this forum must be recognized for their ability to discuss these things in a civil manner.

This post has been edited by Dantrag: Jul 27 2005, 06:43 AM

[Kiln]

That quote pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

Yeah I'm glad people can discuss such touchy subjects rationally without name calling and bickering. People are friendly and respectful here, thats the only reason I feel comfortable posting here.