Waiting4oblivion Parliament, lets try again, shall we? Options

[Stargazey]

There was a suggestion, earlier, that the US should invade Israel instead of Iran. This is possibly the most dangerous idea I've ever heard. If you really, really want to trigger a war that will escalate all the way up to large patches of the world becoming glowing glass car-parks ~ that's probably the best way to do it.

Israel is very very touchy about people pushing them around, and with a damn' good reason. Since the 30's groups of people have been dedicated to wiping them out: on that basis, I'd be bloody twitchy too. "Never forget, never forgive, never again" isn't just a wistful statement for Israel, they really mean it.

I'm also puzzledf as to where the idea that Israel is a dictatorship comes from. Last time I checked, there were democratic elections there...
This is not a flame, or intended to incite. It's just that there is a whole world of difference between a group of people vigourously defending themselves and a genuine dictatorship that wipes out large sections of it's own populace at the whim of the dictator

Isreal is a dangerous, dangerous country. The Mossad is probably the biggest threat to the US's saftey, ever.

New topic: Hurricane Katrina

Begin!
My Opinion: We had the necessary technology to prevent the levee from breaking even uinder a class 5 hurrcane back in 2001.  It would have costed 1.5 billion dollars, but the city would not be flooded like it is.  Not only that, but the 1/5 billion, I think, was for general protection against class 5 hurricanes.

Now the situation we have is diseased water carrying pathogens of dysentary, and stuff, meaning no drinking water.  People are dying trapped in their attics as we speak.  People are supposed to be rescuing the, but do we have the man-power to?  No.  Who usually helps with disaster relief efforts?  The National Guard.  Where is the National Guard? Iraq.

And about government response.  On TV, there was a doctor demanding that they get help air lifting patients out of the hsopital.  he said there's a helipad on the roof, and they need to start moving patients that are in critical condition.  Today, what's happening to that hospital?  Patients are dying.

The law of looting is shoot to kill.  That's the only way in a disaster to maintain control, according to law-enforcement.  They have no water, they have no food, they have no power, there's a locked store with food and water, and people are being tackled as they try to break through the windows.  It's not their fault, no one is helping them.

And what are we going to do now, about three million refugees?  Many are going to houston so they can charge up the homeless population in Houston.  It won't work.  The only thing I can think of is large corporations setting up factory towns.

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=348096

[Wurlon]

yes, whose idea was it to build a city, what, 6-9 feet below sealevel?

Don't forget it's surrounded by a river, a large lake and the ocean, yeah great thinking.

I agree, Bush is not the sympathetic person he wants to be, and by trying to fake it makes him look even worse. My father wants him impeached, and my mother says he a complete moron who only wants money. I myself cannot tell, I'm too young, but the government should have responded to Katrina way before it hit, I mean they knew it might come for days and it took days after to get there, what's with that?

[DoomedOne]

Well, they did evacuate 2/3s of the city.

[Wurlon]

Well, they did evacuate 2/3s of the city.

Yes but don't you think with the predicted damage, and the facts about the city being below sea level would make you want everyone out? I know people have to die, but when it's the government's job to protect they must. I also realize some thought it would not be bad and stayed themselves, that's fine. Lol I heard on the news that people who stayed had to fill out a form with all the basic/medical ect. information on it if they needed help, and if they died as idenification. Not too comforting if it's being used as a body marker eh?

[Channler]

Europe doesn't get hurricanes like the southeast of the US.  See, thanks to global warming, hurricanes that form in a certain spot in the atlantic and the gulf of mexico are 50% more dangerous than they used to be.  People don't seem the understand what one degree temperature rise entails.  It means the barriers reefs will die, it means hurricans will be getting big enough to wipe out entire populations, it means animals living in arctic areas are going to go extinct and that the water is going to rise high enough to take out coastal cities.

Don't say Global warming doesn't exist, it's too late for that.  You can say humans aren't the cause of it if you want, but it's obviously happening.

Um, remeber Galviston?... Before gw took a large affect.. and what about those numorous other natural disasters that wiped out entire civilizations?

Also sorry about my outburst...

But look Red. When Bill Clinton came to my town every democrat thought he was a hero, and when GWB comes to town they' wont do the same. Why?

Why does being black make you the deciding factor in whether or not New Orleans could of been saved!? I woulda of said hamster the people, save the history of it all.

Ha, I've seen more rascim come out of my town towards white people then vice versa. But you will just say I'm baised because I'm white. Trust me I'm not, I'm a reporter, I am objective...

EDIT:

I am finally getting to the point where I would love to leave everyone, and go live in South America, Africa, or some Asian village. Where is the honour of anyone anymore? Oh hell, its not gonna work so just steal it anyway!

OMG THATS SO DEGRADING! Why isn't there people who want to work for the better of the country? Why aren't their people that believe death is wrong and want to stop it? I'm honestly losing all hope for the civilized world. I want to go someplace that in contact with its roots, that is honorable and would fight for what is right... I can't debate anymore, I'm to depressed.

This post has been edited by Channler: Sep 3 2005, 10:52 PM

[DoomedOne]

There are plenty of people who think death is wrong, they're called capital punishment protesters.

Channler, I'm not sure if it's because you face a lot of racism yourself or you just are racist, but I find a lot of your comments to be rather racist.

The reason all the democrats thought Clinton was such a big hero is because he got right on it with disaster relief and what not. It wasn't just the democrats, the entire country supported him during disaster relief. It's funny, disasters are supposed to be godsends for politicians, they get to go down and be the hero. For every single president that's been in office during a natural disaster they got to get some publicity helping the people. Bush even managed to screw that up and let 10,000 people die whose lives could have been saved if we acted directly after the Hurricane struck by getting them food, water, rescuing them out of attics and roof-tops and air-lifting hospital patients who require electricity. None of that happened, and he shares responsibility for those ten thousand deaths because he had the ability to do something about it.

Being black and poor is the deciding factor, because that's one of the only reasons people can think of for why Bush didn't give a damn. When one of the richest places in the world got bombed he was there the next day, but when a bunch of unemployed blacks get flooded what does he do? Talks about rebuilding Trent Lott's Condo. hamster him.

Oh, and in case you think I'm not doing anything but bitching, I've given money to the redcross and I've volunteered at the Student store that gives its money to disaster relief efforts.

[gamer10]

The reason all the democrats thought Clinton was such a big hero is because he got right on it with disaster relief and what not. 

He got right on something (ahem, excuse me I meant someone) else as well.

Bush even managed to screw that up and let 10,000 people die whose lives could have been saved  ten thousand deaths because he had the ability to do something about it.

Yeah, I was talking to Bush the other day.

"Man, you lazy son of an umbrella seller. Why didn't you put on your superhero costume and fly down there to resuce some people with your super abilities. Everyone else was.

Being black and poor is the deciding factor, because that's one of the only reasons people can think of for why Bush didn't give a damn.

Wait a minute- hold on here, so this is how you think it went.

*Mr.Cheney: Mr. President, we've just had a terrible tragedy. New Orleans was hit by a hurricane. People are left homeless, and many are dead.

*President Bush: Where they Blacks?

*Mr.Cheney: Yep.

*President Bush: Ah forget about them, there's plenty to go around.

*Note the extreme sarcasm

  When one of the richest places in the world got bombed he was there the next day, but when a bunch of unemployed blacks get flooded what does he do? 

Doesn't complain, thats left to the Democrats while he takes action.

I'm not doing anything but bitching

This post has been edited by gamer10: Sep 12 2005, 10:59 PM

[DoomedOne]

He got right on something (ahem, excuse me I meant someone) else as well.

You assume because I'm taking into cinsideration that Clinton managed to accomplish what ever other president before accomplished I support him. I love it when people criticize Clinton, because all they talk about is a single stupid sexual offense, not the fact that he bombed countries all around the world for corporate interests or that he supported environment poisoning bills.

Yeah, I was talking to Bush the other day.

"Man, you lazy son of an umbrella seller. Why didn't you put on your superhero costume and fly down there to resuce some people with your super abilities. Everyone else was.

He didn't do anything besides sit on his lazy boat and make a trip to Missippi five days after the hurricane struck, after many people died from lack of water, or pathorens in the diseased water.

Wait a minute- hold on here, so this is how you think it went.

*Mr.Cheney: Mr. President, we've just had a terrible tragedy. New Orleans was hit by a hurricane. People are left homeless, and many are dead.

*President Bush: Where they Blacks?

*Mr.Cheney: Yep.

*President Bush: Ah forget about them, there's plenty to go around.

*Note the extreme sarcasm

It's the fact that they were BLACK AND POOR that lead my speculists to think maybe that's why Bush let them die.

Doesn't complain, thats left to the Democrats while he takes action.

I repeat: HE DID NOT TAKE ACTION that's what this whole argument is about, that he did nothing. It's criminal, and Bush is a criminal for being irresponsible left and right. He has a responsibility to this country but the only thing this boatmaster gives a compassion about is lining up the pockets of him and his buddies. I hope he chokes on a lizard.

[Daikirai]

Heh, DoomedOne is completely right you know..

[DoomedOne]

I lost reason and forgot the form over argument you are to use in this thread. I don't know, something about the second time I saw that guy from the hospital.

If you're asking, what could Bush have done? I'll tell you.

There was a hospital, and this guy came on the air and said something like, "We have a helipad on the roof. There is no electricity and all our patients on life support are going to start dying. We need to air-lift all patients in critical condition out of this hospital." He was trying to reach out to the national guard, to tell them where he was and what he needed in order to save lives.

Three-five days later he was on the air again, this time he was pissed off, "I'm at the hospital at such and such, we have a helipiad on the roof, paitents are dying! We need help right now!" I remember being stunned to hear that no one helped the hospital airlift patients.

5-10 days later, pictures appear in the newspaper of dead people floating around hospitals who could have been saved.

[Neela]

Actually there are a few FACTS that are being completely left out of the media coverage... because the take all the wind out of a making this a story....

1) Constitutionally... it would have been illegal for Bush to order federal troops... including the national guard into Louisianna without the consent of the states govenor.

2) Two days before Katrina hit LA, Bush asked such permission from the LA govenor to have these federal troops standby. The answer from the govenor there was NO!

3) FEMA had actually responded to this disaster quicker than any other hurricane that has struck the US. Including Andrew which also wiped away many towns in FL.

4) The contingency and evacuation plans for this event were NOT followed as outlined by the local and state governments, who also had primary responsibility to take action.

Blaming Bush first off is ridiculous. I think we are forgetting the powers of the president. We are not a monarchy... the presidential powers really are more limited than you realize. I personally don't lay blame to anybody. It is all well and good to point fingers when you have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. Which is my argument. The question is always why wasnt more done before something happened? I think it is amazing that we rely so heavily on our government to be the end all be all of everything. If something in our lives goes wrong... why is it supposed to be the governments fault and why should they be required to fix it? Our government is already far too big and handling far far many more things than was ever intended to be handled at the federal level.

[Red]

Blaming Bush first off is ridiculous.  I think we are forgetting the powers of the president.  We are not a monarchy... the presidential powers really are more limited than you realize.

Actually, I think if the President can start a war upon a country for questionable reasons against the help of the U.N, I think he could've gotten a helicopter down there on the first day and gotten some people off of their roofs.

`The question is always why wasnt more done before something happened?`

The answer is because Bush used the money to fix the levees on national security (aka a big list that doesn't let people using their freedom of speech to fly) and replaced the head of FEMA with a friend (a former arabian horse show coordinator) with no disaster experiance who would act as a scape goat in a situation like this.

`I think it is amazing that we rely so heavily on our government to be the end all be all of everything. If something in our lives goes wrong... why is it supposed to be the governments fault and why should they be required to fix it?`

Because that is their duty. To make sure we don't die horribly in a hurricane. I think its amazing that you don't expect them to do anything for us after they take our money, destroy our jobs, bring us into defeceit and send us to a greed war.

It seems like people are ignoring the facts. Facts such as the money for rebuilding the levees was drained for absolutely nothing, the government could've helped in the first thirty minutes, "Brownie" was a scape goat and Bush doesn't care about poor black people dieing, for if he did, those levees would have been fixed during his first year in office.

[DoomedOne]

I don't think Bush is to blame, I think he shares responsibility, please, do not set up a strawman.

Also, I may agree with you were I libertarian, but fortunately I'm not, that means that I can't send all my helicoptors over to deliver food and water.

[Neela]

This was just sent to me by a friend..

WARNING - Contains very Explicit language!!!!!

Another aspect of the hurricane disaster to put into perspective


Foamy the Squirrel

[DoomedOne]

What aspect? The squirrel just rants about how news reporters are jack asses, as if we didn't know already.

Top 3 reasons I don't watch the news:

1. Corporate Bias. How come crime in this country is dropping, and yet people seem to think it's rising? Because people watch the news. Every year the amount of coverage on Violent Crime increases, making it seem like criminal activity is increasing, making people feel like we need to build more prisons. And then we make a few more laws about marijuana so we can fill those prisons up with 18 years olds, insitutionalize them into criminals, and breed a population of criminals because of petty crimes. Prisons make criminals, criminals do not make prisons. How come real coverage of actual events people care about or downplayed, to give the viewers the feeling it's unimportant? Because their sponsors told them to. It's retarded.

2. People think there's some sort of imaginary "Liberal Bias." I mean, they're right, PBS has a liberal bias because they report news that is of interest. CNN has a very liberal bias aside from the fact that they get stories that they are going to present cut every day from their program because they show too much bias, or the fact that they let go a presidential correspondent because his second cousin was married to an open supporter of that president or something like that. Why watch the news and give people an excuse to call me a stereotypical liberal?

3. It's mostly nonsense and incorrect information. If I want to read a report that was altered by the Bush administration to downplay the effects of Global warming so the idea is formed in my Head that Global Warming is not as threatening as it is, I'll watch the news. If I want to hear about how Bush went awol then two days later see a public apology for saying he went awol, I'll watch the news, until I want to see that, I'll stick to something credible.

[Red]

I agree with alot of what you said, but ever since the hurricane, the news is starting to become reliable.

[gamer10]

The question is always why wasnt more done before something happened?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I have no idea . . . .? This one is a toughie . . I'll get back to you in . . . oh thirty years.

Here's something I figured out-

People who focus on what could have been done instead of focusing on what we can do now need to be put right.

It's too late to do anything about the past, so let's focus on the present and future. Sure you have your biased newsman who rants about the wrongs done by the president and the republican party. I say **** the Democrats and the Republicans! Go . . uh . . . Ronald Macdonald! No wait . . that's horrible.

Every single presidential election since advanced technology came about has probably been rigged one way or the other. So I have to say to all this complaining . . meh.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Sep 19 2005, 10:20 PM

[DoomedOne]

Dissent has been one of the biggest movers of this society since it was born. People arguing over what could have done is less pruductive than doing something in the present, but in the long run it's this dissent that progresses this society forward. The massive anger at Bush for his actions even caused him to publicly accept responsibility for doing nothing. I mean, that may not seem like much, but I think of Bush very poorly on the spectrum of humanity, so that's a big step in my mind. You know what it tells me to do? Next time he screws up, I'll be even more on the offensive, and hopefully so will everyone else, and then maybe he'll actually do something in time to save lives. It's that kind of work that has changed the world for the better.

Then, too much dissent and you get present day Germany where enflation that can be at no fault of the president causes and impeachment trial. There is a balance required, and I'm sure most people that lean more right on the spectrum than myself disagree where this balance lies.

[Channler]

Just a thought...

You know how your ranting about the government not doing anything for LA and whatnot?

Well your right, I sat down last night and thought about it..

Did you realize that the mayor of New Orleans kept the buses that were SUPPOSED to evac all the people halted untill pretty much half the town was underwater? Now why would he kill his own race? Oh, I forgot he was black.

And did you know why the levee was never reinforced? Because all the tree huggers and eco nazis SUED the Army Corp of Engineers EVERY time they tried to fix it.. And guess what, they won!

I'm sure those fishy's are havin fun munchin on dead bodies, after all they are much more imporrtant then us...

[DoomedOne]

No I never really thought it was because of race persee, I just wanted to see you guys refute that. I mean, it seemed because so many people blamed it on race, that was what caused Bush to make a public apology.

Could I get a source to this lawsuit with environmental organizations sueing the army corps of engineers?