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McBadgere
Are the Blades nerfed in Skyrim...I love the Blades in Oblivion...Couldn't wait to be one of them...But having glanced quickly at the guide book, it sounds like they're a*ses this time...Why would I kill a Dragon that helps me fercryingoutloud?...

So?...Are they cool, good and ace to be one of?..Or are they bad guys?..

Cheers...
Grits
I may have gotten it wrong, but the dragon isn’t helping me. I mean, it would have eaten me at Helseth, if it knew things then that became clear later.

Rowan has done some Blades-y things, but I don’t know yet about joining. I mean, she’s the Dragonborn. The Blades are there for her.

I'm still in the very beginning of the questline, though. Right now I think Esbern is awesome, but he may do things later that piss me off.




EDIT: Oh, that dragon. Yeah, I'm starting to see another side of things.
mALX
I don't think it is a matter of them being the good guys or bad guys - more like the ineffectual guys. There are three of them. You as the player can only pump their numbers up by picking up followers and leaving them with the Blades, then getting another, etc.

Their only two quests are for you to pump their numbers up by procurring followers on your own (the game has not set up any for you to go find in a quest) - and to kill the only good dragon to "get even" with him for something that happened three hundred years ago.

How about I get even with THEM for something they did 200 years ago - failing to protect the Septims? HAH !!!
McBadgere
*Adopts shocked look*...

You mean...Bethesda completely ar$ed up another faction?...No...

Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs... huh.gif ...

biggrin.gif ...
Thomas Kaira
I just love how after you visit Paarthurnax, they have the audacity to order you around as if suddenly you serve them. And threatening to not support you anymore if you decline. What support? dragging me around Skyrim a couple times for some information I was scripted to obtain? When the Greybeards are the guys actually helping me grow my power? Who do those losers think they are?

I'm probably going to make a mod that makes those two non-essential at that point so that anyone who has an inkling to take the "to Oblivion with you" approach can give those two their just comeuppance.
Fawkes
Sided with the Greybeards in this one, Kent is a bandit king, so He knows that the blades are pretty much useless, the Blades have not helped him one single bit, sure some information here and there but he is the one that does everything.

Of course during the treaty the Greybeards pretty much dissed the Blades, when Delphine told me to go kill Paarthurnax, the Greybeards told her that I had already sworn to protect Paarthurnax.

Hmm, side with a Majestic Dragon, or side with the blades who failed to protect..well everything.

Kent's choice was clear tongue.gif
mALX
QUOTE(Fawkes @ Dec 18 2011, 07:14 PM) *

Sided with the Greybeards in this one, Kent is a bandit king, so He knows that the blades are pretty much useless, the Blades have not helped him one single bit, sure some information here and there but he is the one that does everything.

Of course during the treaty the Greybeards pretty much dissed the Blades, when Delphine told me to go kill Paarthurnax, the Greybeards told her that I had already sworn to protect Paarthurnax.

Hmm, side with a Majestic Dragon, or side with the blades who failed to protect..well everything.

Kent's choice was clear tongue.gif



That's the way I feel about it. Who do they think they are, there are only three of them! When they were a full army they couldn't protect the Emperor, and left all the dirty work of saving Cyrodiil up to the Player then too! I don't see them as a force that will matter if they swear the Player as an enemy then or now, ROFL !!!
McBadgere
When Delphine whinged at me about Paarthunax I was like "Well, FUS you b*tch!"... biggrin.gif ...

Shame though...Could have been so beautiful...Could have been so right...

Oooh Tiffany...*Sigh*...
Colonel Mustard
Esbern, Delphine, I'm not killing Parthanaax. He's adorable. End of.

And I really don't see how I need to do what you people say when I'm the dragonborn and your entire job is essentially do do as I say. I can shout fire at you, so if I reduce you to tea boys/girls then you'll be damn well happy about it!

So yeah, I sided with the Greybeards. They may not get up to much, but at least they're an overall decent bunch.
mALX
I wonder what happens if you marry one of the Blades and then turn them down on killing the dragon? Will they divorce you? Try to kill you in your sleep (while giving you Lovers Comfort)?
mALX
Sorry, double post.
Captain Hammer
My current reply:

"No. I trust Paarthurnax, and I trust the Greybeards. The dragon is my blood, my kin, and my mentor. Thank you for your current assistance, but I believe this must end our relationship. Try to force the issue, and you will die."

Or something along those lines.



That was what I must do. It is not what I really want to say.

My ideal reply must wait for a mod, an expansion, some DLC, or my own coding. It would go like this:

"You who would call yourselves Blades. You presume to order me to kill an ally, one who has never given me cause to mistrust him, on account of deeds taking place centuries prior, deeds performed under the service of a superior, and when he realized that the path he was taking was improper, and his superior a false pretender claiming more than his proper due, this ally promptly rebelled, and was instrumental in the defeat of our great enemy. Paarthurnax has spent centuries guiding the humans of Tamriel. He has given us the strength and wisdom to see us be the masters of our own destiny. He has overcome the loyalty he once showed his own brother, a loyalty worthy of praise but one corrupted by Alduin, and not the one you would have me kill."

"You who would call yourselves Blades. You presume to order me, an acknowledged Dovahkiin, Dragonborn, who has performed acts in footsteps of my predecessor, Talos, Ysmir the Dragon of the North, the Dragon Emperor Tiber Septim! You were an order sworn to service of the Dragonborn! The last line of emperors was of the Dragon-Blood, and perished under your eyes and your arms! You failed, and when a great doom came to the Empire, you were a casualty of the people's whim and the malice of the Thalmor. Had you proven youselves better, had you proven yourselves worthy of your legacy, I would have ensured your survival. I would have seen to the expansion, strengthening, and return to prominence that your order should inherit. I would have seen a Dragonguard Order of the Imperial Blades restored to what it was in times of old.

"You who would call yourselves BLADES! Your predecessors included Jauffre, Baurus, and the Champion of Cyrodiil, who fought with Martin and witnessed as he became One With Akatosh to drive Mehrunes Dagon from Nirn. Your predecessors included the Nerevarine, who freed the Heart of Lorkhan and cast down the False Gods of the Tribunal. Your predecessors included Rielus, Casnar, Valdemar, and Alain, Knights of the Races of Men who fought, served, and died under the banner of the Dragonborn, Tiber Septim. Your predecessors included he who once resurrected your order, the Chevalier Renald, Vershu, who served the Reman Dynasty of the Dragonborn, survived through the entire tumult that was the Second Era, and helped bring an end to the Interregnum by seeing Talos crowned as Tiber Septim. Do you now call yourselves the Heirs to This Legacy!?!?

"You who would call yourselves, Blades! Titus Mede, Second of his name, gave assent to the edict that saw your order dissolved. He is an emperor who forfeited an entire province, and now fails to develop and the marshal the strength needed to revenge ourselves upon the Aldmeri Dominion. Our land rends itself with civil war, and Titus is unable to cause his citizens to see past their own petty squabbles, and reach for the destiny that is theirs by the gift of the gods. Yet this emperor has little enough by way of family, and no unquestioned heir to claim the throne upon his death. I have the strength of the dragons behind me. I have the loyalty of the people, who know me as one of them, and as the one that would be first to do what is necessary to protect the innocent. I have the blessings, and the gifts of power, given unto me by the Nine Divines. And when history repeats itself, for history must repeat itself, it will hearken the memories of our people and the memories of the Thalmor to the conquests of Tiber Septim, not to the strife and success the Dominion knew during the Great War.

"You who would call yourselves Blades. I would have seen you behind me, I would have seen you returned to the great legacy of your forebears, I would have seen you do your duty and your honor, to place a Dragonborn on the Ruby Throne and rule Tamriel as Emperor. Yet in this you betray my trust and my willingness to receive you for a worthiness you throw to the winds. You presume to order me. I refuse to be ordered. You would threaten to shun me and denounce me. I do not require you as an absolute necessity to my plans. Your words of denouncement would carry little if any weight, and some may yet remember your failures and your great fall, and consider me the better for having rejected this thing you ask of me. If you wish to be known as you once were, you have one path to follow, I path that I alone will see blazed into the records of history.

"You now have a choice. I give this to you, that you may fully understand, and be free to choose the path that most embraces your conscious and your morals. You may walk away, alone and ejected from the Order of the Blades, or together, and take the last vestiges of your order with you to your eventual graves. This I shall not begrudge you, should it be your true and willful choice. You may choose to oppose me, in word or in deed, openly or hidden in the shadows, to weaken my support, frustrate my plans, and harm me as you are able. Do so, openly or under the pretenses of peace, amity, or indifference, and I shall hunt you down as surely as if you were an ally of Alduin. This I promise, and my words carry with them the very force of nature. Or, you may declare yourselves for me, serve me as your forebears served the previous dynasties of the Dragon Emperors, become the pillar of strength and wisdom that I can rely upon in all things, and I swear, on my Voice, on my name and on my soul, to never abandon you, to heed your reasonable advice, to place my trust where it is earned, and to see you restored to that which is your inheritance as Blades!

"I do not intend to be one that operates under self-delusions of grandeur. I cannot afford such. But the more Tamriel sees me as the rightful heir to the legacies of Alessia and Morihaus, Reman Cyrodiil and his Dynasty, and the Septim lineage of great Tiber, the closer we come to our objective. Help me, aid me, see me enthroned in the Imperial City. Assist me as I mend the wounds that tore fair Skyrim asunder. Help me see the Sons and Daughters of Yokuda returned to their cousins in the Empire. Let us prevent any further predations of the thrice-cursed Thalmor upon us, and see justice done across Tamriel. Help me show the people of Tamriel why the Empire of the Dragonborn is worthy of their loyalty. I give you three days to consider this. Consider well. At that time I shall return, and we shall have reached that last point. If any do not intend to this enterprise, you should say so. An hour more, and it will be too late to turn back. Once committed, I intend to see us through. Think it over — all of you. If any one wishes to withdraw you will be gladly excused, for others are ready to take your place."
Colonel Mustard
I take it you didn't take that request too well, Cap...
Captain Hammer
It was either give them a custom 'The Reason You Suck' speech, or the much shorter and hot-headed reply of "Yol Toor Shul!" I would try diplomacy.
Colonel Mustard
QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 20 2011, 02:20 PM) *
hot-headed reply of "Yol Toor Shul!".


I see what you did there...

Personally I'd set them on fire, but that's just my usual response to most of life's problems. Come to think of it, I'd be an awful dragonborn...
McBadgere
QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 20 2011, 06:06 AM) *

My current beautiful and truly awe inspiring reply:.......


blink.gif ...

Wow...

I mean...Yeah...I said that to them, but I didn't have time to type it...Y'know?...Pshaw...

(Awesome write btw)...
Black Hand
o.O Jeebus Cap'n! I'd throw down with you after that speech.
Captain Hammer
Colonel, McBadgere, my thanks.

Black Hand: Define "throw down with me." 'Cuz I don't think I could survive any application of Sethyas Velas to the back of the neck, no matter how many dragon souls I've consumed.

OTOH, if Seth wants to see about renewing his good standing as a Blade, I'm sure we could expedite the paperwork. Got a copy of a form here signed by some fellow named Constans Atrius dating back to the late part of the Third Era...
Destri Melarg
QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 19 2011, 10:06 PM) *

"I do not intend to be one that operates under self-delusions of grandeur."

But Tamriel needs to view me as its rightful ruler. I control the forces of nature with an alacrity that makes Kynareth jealous, and I could kill you all by raising my voice. So just shut up, sit up straight, brush your teeth, and help me get my F***ing throne f’Oblivion’s sake! bigsmile.gif

This made my day Cappy. Thanks.
Captain Hammer
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 21 2011, 03:04 PM) *

But Tamriel needs to view me as its rightful ruler. I control the forces of nature with an alacrity that makes Kynareth jealous, and I could kill you all by raising my voice. So just shut up, sit up straight, brush your teeth, and help me get my F***ing throne f’Oblivion’s sake! bigsmile.gif

This made my day Cappy. Thanks.

Hey, it ain't delusion if it's true! Glad you enjoyed it, though I'm a little taken aback that you weren't expecting this.

I have been forthright and adamant about what I want in a Skyrim Expansion!

Oh, and Destri? Your skillful serve has finally been returned. Your move. laugh.gif
Black Hand
@ Captain: I'd fight at your side is what was inferred.

Though in my version of Skyrim events, Sethyas is also a Dragonborn and still alive...'far star marked, and Dragonborn'. Is he THE Dragonborn remains to be seen. He's definitely a nightingale though....
mALX
QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 21 2011, 08:12 PM) *

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 21 2011, 03:04 PM) *

But Tamriel needs to view me as its rightful ruler. I control the forces of nature with an alacrity that makes Kynareth jealous, and I could kill you all by raising my voice. So just shut up, sit up straight, brush your teeth, and help me get my F***ing throne f’Oblivion’s sake! bigsmile.gif

This made my day Cappy. Thanks.

Hey, it ain't delusion if it's true! Glad you enjoyed it, though I'm a little taken aback that you weren't expecting this.

I have been forthright and adamant about what I want in a Skyrim Expansion!

Oh, and Destri? Your skillful serve has finally been returned. Your move. laugh.gif



ROFL !!! And the match continues !! Loved every one of those Will as W's !!
Destri Melarg
QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 21 2011, 05:12 PM) *

Hey, it ain't delusion if it's true! Glad you enjoyed it, though I'm a little taken aback that you weren't expecting this.

I have been forthright and adamant about what I want in a Skyrim Expansion!

I do remember that thread! laugh.gif You are just dead set on getting into the Emperor's robes!( ohmy.gif see, now that just came out wrong!)

QUOTE
Oh, and Destri? Your skillful serve has finally been returned. Your move. laugh.gif

Sorry, Cap. Destri is pulling a McEnroe right now and staring down the chair umpire (Bethesda) for changing his mind on a previous call.
Colonel Mustard
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 22 2011, 05:03 AM) *
@ Captain: I'd fight at your side is what was inferred.

Though in my version of Skyrim events, Sethyas is also a Dragonborn and still alive...'far star marked, and Dragonborn'. Is he THE Dragonborn remains to be seen. He's definitely a nightingale though....

Seth gets around a bit, doesn't he? wink.gif


Black Hand
QUOTE(Colonel Mustard @ Dec 22 2011, 12:23 PM) *
Seth gets around a bit, doesn't he? wink.gif



You have nooo idea.

IPB Image


IPB Image

Why is he a Thief? Why is he suddenly less of an expert assassin? Well, he still has roughly the same morals 200 years later, and the Dark Brotherhood is an even more of a amoral outfit, so that's completely out of the question. There's even an Ex-Morag Tong (Which Beth either retconned or completely screwed up calling MoraNg Tong) Dunmer with the guild.

And he surprised Delphine, not the other way around.

"I'm part of a group that in ancient times were Dragonslayers."

"You're a Blade! I should have known.."

"How...how could you possibly have known that?"

"I was one once...many, many years ago."

Later in the Quest....

"You were a Blade once,...where were you stationed?"

"Vvardenfell."

"We haven't had an outfit there in decades! And I know elves live a long time, but you don't look old enough to even have been much more than a child when the Red Mountain exploded."

"The Nerevarine was discovered and placed by the Blades, I was...involved in his ascension. The Nerevarine also discovered immortality in an a disease that was wiped out two hundred years ago called Corprus. It defies both disease and age."

"That doesn't make sense...you both received it and were cured?"

"It makes sense, if the Mer who stands before you now is the Nerevarine. And I'm technically still Operative rank. You don't impress me Delphine, I slayed Demigods, and closed Oblivion gates before your great-great-grandfather was born. Even now, I still find my destiny is aligned with the Divine. Once Azura's chosen and Mephala's Agent, now I find that I am Akatosh's blood. I have met an Aspect of Talos, Mara and Zenithar. Now another ancient deity rises who is hell-bent on destroying the world? You fear it. I've been there, and done that. Perhaps you think me mad? Arrogant maybe? I see now why the Telvanni were so jaded."
Grits
ohmy.gif biggrin.gif (twirly if we had one)
Captain Hammer
Destri: Ah, taking your confirmed heretic nature a little seriously? Sorry to hear. However, I'd like to point out that we now know just how Wulfharth blasted the Khajiit army: Force Balance Push!

QUOTE
You are just dead set on getting into the Emperor's robes!( ohmy.gif see, now that just came out wrong!)

You're kidding, right? Two Septim Emperors and a Mede got killed in those robes. And that's at minimum. It's the seat I want. Nobody got killed while actually on the Ruby Throne (except maybe the last Potentate, but he was Tsaesci, and doesn't count) and it seems a relatively safe place if I have line-of-site over the room.


Black Hand: I see Seth is becoming more and more awesome. But, if it doesn't quite work out for him (that is, he is Dragon-born in the more metaphorical sense and not Dovahkiin - Dragonborn! in the literal sense), I've got a proposal for him.

See, [Future Character by the Captain] hates the Dark Brotherhood. When accidentally running afoul of them, he was presented a most sadistic choice. He instead chose a Third Option (technically, a Fourth Option, since Option Three was part of this particular sadistic choice) and expressed his displeasure with the Dark Brotherhood rather effectively. Not completely, though, and in the process [Captain's Future Character] realized that somebody had it out for ol' Titus Mede II. Somebody on the Elder Council.

So, now he's got a problem. [The Captain's Future Character] needs Titus dead, but he can't be associated as such. This Elder Council member that wants Titus dead can be used the perfect "Man Behind the Man," but the actual execution is gonna be impossible to pull off . . . unless we can get a trained assassin to infiltrate the Dark Brotherhood, pull of the assassination, and then escape under the cover of a contrived Dragon attack that I intend to orchestrate to set myself up as a regretful hero that feels guilt over his failure to save the emperor.

Also, such a person would need to be extremely discreet, trustworthy, understand the regretful necessity of such an act, and be willing to call out [Cappy's New Character] if he ever contemplated an act of such a dubious nature again. The task comes with an automatic promotion to become the new Grandmaster of the Blades.

Up for the job?
Black Hand
QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 23 2011, 09:31 PM) *
Black Hand: {snip} Up for the job?



Actually...that I could totally get behind...Because any Lore-Khan worth their salt know that the Night Mother is really Mephala, and not many people hear the Lady of Whispers these days.

I know what you're all saying: But that corpse-lady is totally talking to me! A-and Sithis!!

Well, here is a long-winded explanation....



Now that that is over. I could see Sethyas realizing the above after 200 years and wanting to re-establish her worship and to re-enact a certain level of honor within Assassins. After all, the DB and the TG are both 'universally tolerated' as they bring a certain level of control to these rogue elements that on the same note, are technically needed as well.


IPB Image

"This...Astrid. She is a representation of everything I am not. I hesitate to even call her an Assassin. Certainly she possesses the skills of one, she certainly exchanges blood for gold...but her true craving is power. She has reduced a former enemy of mine; one that I had equal respect as I had hate for, into a cave full of malefactors, no different than bandit tribe."

"However my centuries have granted me insights that few Men or Mer could begin to fathom. I know now that my passions were manipulated and used by the Lady of Whispers, as is her prerogative. But I have never strayed from her path. I believe she wants this Astrid dead, but in the most deceitful way possible. I believe that I am already within her web, a string as vital as any other."

"I also believe that I can restore the traditions and honor that once made an Assassin feared, rather than hated...so [future character] we have a boon. To eliminate an Emperor would please Mephala beyond imagining, the very mortal figurehead of Stasis on Nirn. And those fools who believe they worship Sithis...well, that I believe is her greatest accomplishment."
liliandra nadiar
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 24 2011, 07:37 AM) *


IPB Image


Eeep! Hit the PageDn and I see this guy glaring at me from nearly the exact center on the screen. For a moment I could've swron the hand print was blood. ohmy.gif
Black Hand
QUOTE(liliandra nadiar @ Dec 24 2011, 07:57 PM) *
Eeep! Hit the PageDn and I see this guy glaring at me from nearly the exact center on the screen. For a moment I could've swron the hand print was blood. ohmy.gif


Sethyas Velas, Master Assassin, and formerly the Nerevarine, at your service.
Grits
So I finally got The Talk from Delphine. She was not very convincing. I thought that Esbern had more interesting things to say on the subject. He talked about justice, and my character went with redemption.

I wish they would have made a better case for killing Paarthurnax, or somehow made the choice harder. As it stands I’m just giving up my idea of what the Blades should be. I like the tough choices that result in some kind of loss. This was not one of them.


McBadgere
Damned them annoying necessary character things...I went in, let Delphine and Esbern whine at me for a short while...Saved the game, then simply KIWWED THE BWAAADES!!!...huh-huh-huh... laugh.gif ...

Sadly they came back to life again.. kvright.gif ...

Idjots...Not a happy bunny...
SubRosa
QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 25 2011, 01:21 PM) *

Damned them annoying necessary character things...I went in, let Delphine and Esbern whine at me for a short while...Saved the game, then simply KIWWED THE BWAAADES!!!...huh-huh-huh... laugh.gif ...

Sadly they came back to life again.. kvright.gif ...

Idjots...Not a happy bunny...

You could try opening the console, selecting each of them in turn, and typing disable. I am not sure if they will respawn when the cell resets though.
McBadgere
Lol...Sounds like a plan!...Sadly PS3 though...

Cheers for the idea though... biggrin.gif ...
mALX
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 24 2011, 12:37 PM) *

QUOTE(Captain Hammer @ Dec 23 2011, 09:31 PM) *
Black Hand: {snip} Up for the job?



Actually...that I could totally get behind...Because any Lore-Khan worth their salt know that the Night Mother is really Mephala, and not many people hear the Lady of Whispers these days.

I know what you're all saying: But that corpse-lady is totally talking to me! A-and Sithis!!

Well, here is a long-winded explanation....



Now that that is over. I could see Sethyas realizing the above after 200 years and wanting to re-establish her worship and to re-enact a certain level of honor within Assassins. After all, the DB and the TG are both 'universally tolerated' as they bring a certain level of control to these rogue elements that on the same note, are technically needed as well.


IPB Image

"This...Astrid. She is a representation of everything I am not. I hesitate to even call her an Assassin. Certainly she possesses the skills of one, she certainly exchanges blood for gold...but her true craving is power. She has reduced a former enemy of mine; one that I had equal respect as I had hate for, into a cave full of malefactors, no different than bandit tribe."

"However my centuries have granted me insights that few Men or Mer could begin to fathom. I know now that my passions were manipulated and used by the Lady of Whispers, as is her prerogative. But I have never strayed from her path. I believe she wants this Astrid dead, but in the most deceitful way possible. I believe that I am already within her web, a string as vital as any other."

"I also believe that I can restore the traditions and honor that once made an Assassin feared, rather than hated...so [future character] we have a boon. To eliminate an Emperor would please Mephala beyond imagining, the very mortal figurehead of Stasis on Nirn. And those fools who believe they worship Sithis...well, that I believe is her greatest accomplishment."




Ah, the Acceptable Blasphemies - absolutely LOVE the Lore! Thank you for this, I would love to see a thread delving into the Lore here like they have on the BGSF !!
Black Hand
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2011, 01:43 PM) *
Ah, the Acceptable Blasphemies - absolutely LOVE the Lore! Thank you for this, I would love to see a thread delving into the Lore here like they have on the BGSF !!


Danke, Danke. I actually learned quite a bit of it from there. Sithis was the hardest to grasp at first. Once I got a hold of it, I saw the connection the early Morag Tong made between Sithis and Murder, and the cause that made the act of assassination a 'holy' one.

When the Dramatic Brotherhood says: "Sithis IS the void." They're actually correct on that one. Sithis is the act of limitation that comprises one half of the Aurbis. But it is not sentient, alive, conscious, etc. in any way, shape, or form. At best the "Dread Father" is a anthropomorphic 'God' of sorts.

But you could destroy all of the Aurbis and Sithis would not be one iota stronger than it is now.

Mephala on the other hand...she does grow stronger with acts of intrigue.
mALX
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 25 2011, 08:25 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2011, 01:43 PM) *
Ah, the Acceptable Blasphemies - absolutely LOVE the Lore! Thank you for this, I would love to see a thread delving into the Lore here like they have on the BGSF !!


Danke, Danke. I actually learned quite a bit of it from there. Sithis was the hardest to grasp at first. Once I got a hold of it, I saw the connection the early Morag Tong made between Sithis and Murder, and the cause that made the act of assassination a 'holy' one.

When the Dramatic Brotherhood says: "Sithis IS the void." They're actually correct on that one. Sithis is the act of limitation that comprises one half of the Aurbis. But it is not sentient, alive, conscious, etc. in any way, shape, or form. At best the "Dread Father" is a anthropomorphic 'God' of sorts.

But you could destroy all of the Aurbis and Sithis would not be one iota stronger than it is now.

Mephala on the other hand...she does grow stronger with acts of intrigue.



I learned more from that subsection on the BGSF than I did studying the Lore through the books and stories, I loved that whole subsection.

The most exciting thing for me was the debates people would get into on there, because each side would have a powerful argument for their interpretation. I actually used some of the debates themselves in my story to emphasize that the people of Tamriel each had their own belief as to how their history should be interpreted.

Whoever wrote the original Lore for TES was amazing (was it Tedders?).

Black Hand
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2011, 05:57 PM) *
Whoever wrote the original Lore for TES was amazing (was it Tedders?).


It was in large part a group effort...however...the man most directly responsible, is MK. Michael Kirkbride. He wrote the 36 sermons of Vivec, and a large number of other books in Morrowind, as well as the The Song of Pelinal.

The KotN DLC was made in direct response to the lack of, and in some cases the outright butchering of Lore in Oblivion, (may the vile game be forever forgotten) especially an explanation of Pelinal Whitestrake, and the deep mythological past of Cyrodiil, and what exactly the Alessian Doctrines really were.

Theres even a book in Morrowind by: "Mikael Karkuxor" which is shockingly about lore. He also still posts under the handle "MK" on the Officials and typically his word is considered canon though he technically no longer works for Bethesda, he still keeps the flame going with stories he'll post, and explanations about new aspects of the lore.

And ninety percent of whats now going on in TES is based on his works, Dragon Break, Enantiomorph (Walk like them, until you become like them.) et'Ada. et cetera.

mALX
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 25 2011, 09:51 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2011, 05:57 PM) *
Whoever wrote the original Lore for TES was amazing (was it Tedders?).


It was in large part a group effort...however...the man most directly responsible, is MK. Michael Kirkbride. He wrote the 36 sermons of Vivec, and a large number of other books in Morrowind, as well as the The Song of Pelinal.

The KotN DLC was made in direct response to the lack of, and in some cases the outright butchering of Lore in Oblivion, (may the vile game be forever forgotten) especially an explanation of Pelinal Whitestrake, and the deep mythological past of Cyrodiil, and what exactly the Alessian Doctrines really were.

Theres even a book in Morrowind by: "Mikael Karkuxor" which is shockingly about lore. He also still posts under the handle "MK" on the Officials and typically his word is considered canon though he technically no longer works for Bethesda, he still keeps the flame going with stories he'll post, and explanations about new aspects of the lore.

And ninety percent of whats now going on in TES is based on his works, Dragon Break, Enantiomorph (Walk like them, until you become like them.) et'Ada. et cetera.



HA! Now I have to go back to the lore arguments I was most fascinated by and see if he was involved, lol. I remember his name, have seen it over at the Imperial Library. Thank you so much for the info!
Black Hand
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2011, 08:06 PM) *
HA! Now I have to go back to the lore arguments I was most fascinated by and see if he was involved, lol. I remember his name, have seen it over at the Imperial Library. Thank you so much for the info!



Just don't ask what CHIM is. It's been done to death. It's NPC's that have achieved transcendence. A circle sideways is an 'I' and Lorkhan never, ever forgot it. It's 'oneness' and also an inside joke with the Devs. Vivec for example has CHIM, he knows hes not real, and thus now exists.

Vivec is Vehk and Vehk (also called V'Vehk, which is where Vivec the name comes from.) VV is an upside down M, hence Michael Kirkbride is Vivec.
mALX
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 25 2011, 11:22 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2011, 08:06 PM) *
HA! Now I have to go back to the lore arguments I was most fascinated by and see if he was involved, lol. I remember his name, have seen it over at the Imperial Library. Thank you so much for the info!



Just don't ask what CHIM is. It's been done to death. It's NPC's that have achieved transcendence. A circle sideways is an 'I' and Lorkhan never, ever forgot it. It's 'oneness' and also an inside joke with the Devs. Vivec for example has CHIM, he knows hes not real, and thus now exists.

Vivec is Vehk and Vehk (also called V'Vehk, which is where Vivec the name comes from.) VV is an upside down M, hence Michael Kirkbride is Vivec.



I just read on the Imperial Library that Michael Kirkbride used to post under the name "Vehk" before posting as MK.

When I'm researching Lore for my story I usually start with the Imperial Library and then go over to the BGSF Lore section and dig around till I find related discussions on it.

Before the format change in 2010, I was able to find some very old threads in that Lore subsection that had some powerful discussions on the Lore. It was on one of these that I found that discussion on the acceptable blasphemies, quantum fluctuation, Plenum, panoply, etc.

I pored over that section for literally months reading these old discussions, even copied the posts and pasted them on word docs so I could study them offline. They were some of the most exciting discussions I've ever seen in my lifetime - some way beyond my ken to understand, others opening a whole new realm of understanding.

After the format change they were no longer available, I think some were purged off. Had I known they wouldn't be available again I may have copied every single one of them for future reference.



McBadgere
re: Oblivion...And Black Hand...

QUOTE
may the vile game be forever forgotten


*Coughs politely and raises eyebrow...*...

biggrin.gif ...
mALX
Speaking of Michael Kirkbride, here is something he wrote years ago regarding the Altmeri and dragons. Since it is rumored in Skyrim that the Thalmer were responsible for the return of the dragons:


What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos:


To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.


* Hope he was sent royalties on the use of his idea when Skyrim was released, lol.
Black Hand
Those writings are exactly why I love Skyrim. You went from a game that has little to no lore, to one literally dripping in it.

Sorry McBadgere, a little slip on my part perhaps, but I love the Lore of the TES and was steeped in it and Michael Kirkbrides works, before the game came out. Than when it did...it was... disappointing to put it mildly.



mALX
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 26 2011, 01:13 AM) *

Those writings are exactly why I love Skyrim. You went from a game that has little to no lore, to one literally dripping in it.

Sorry McBadgere, a little slip on my part perhaps, but I love the Lore of the TES and was steeped in it and Michael Kirkbrides works, before the game came out. Than when it did...it was... disappointing to put it mildly.



That one paragraph even covers the banning of Talos worship! (how prophetic it was, and I repeat I hope he was given credit for that theme).
McBadgere
Oooh, won't be having none of the Talos worship banning in my story... tongue.gif ...
Black Hand
QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 25 2011, 11:46 PM) *

Oooh, won't be having none of the Talos worship banning in my story... tongue.gif ...


Doom Drum = Lorkhan, the trickster god who created Nirn, also called Shor in Nordic culture.

They're overlooking one thing however...Lorkhan IS the Dragon Akatosh.

WHAAA??!! @@

It's a simple dichotomy, Lorkhan is the God of Space (the world), Akatosh is the God of Time. Space and time are instrinsically connected. We don't percieve Lorkhan because he is the very space which we occupy. They can't break one, without breaking the other.

That's why the Aedra back up man, over Mer. Not because man has the right knowledge, but because they view the world as a good thing, whereas the Elves want to be et'Ada, or the spirits which Aedra and Daedra and technically everything in Nirn is also...just a different sphere and form.

"Walk like them until you become like them." = The more pie you eat, the more in tune to gravity you are. The more you act and worship like the Aedra, the more connected to this world you become.

Sethyas...to toot my own horn...is in league with Mephala. The more he follows her path, the more in tune with her sphere he becomes. This is why Daedra worship is so frowned upon.

Edited to add: MK still does do some consulting work, and technically anything he would have made as an employee of Beth, becomes the intellectual property of Beth. Which is why he has such a powerful, if not small, following. He does it for the love of the lore, not material gain. I don't think the two dozen people that comprise the 'Cult of MK' (my words, never called as such) have too much of an effect on the Beths financial department.

But when you get into it, you realize that TES Lore is as deep as Tolkeins'. (Cue rabid LotR Fans to attack me.)
McBadgere
blink.gif ...*Is scared of the verry clever person, and walks away from the table vewwy vewwy kwietwy...*...

mALX
QUOTE(Black Hand @ Dec 26 2011, 09:38 AM) *

QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 25 2011, 11:46 PM) *

Oooh, won't be having none of the Talos worship banning in my story... tongue.gif ...


Doom Drum = Lorkhan, the trickster god who created Nirn, also called Shor in Nordic culture.

They're overlooking one thing however...Lorkhan IS the Dragon Akatosh.

WHAAA??!! @@

It's a simple dichotomy, Lorkhan is the God of Space (the world), Akatosh is the God of Time. Space and time are instrinsically connected. We don't percieve Lorkhan because he is the very space which we occupy. They can't break one, without breaking the other.

That's why the Aedra back up man, over Mer. Not because man has the right knowledge, but because they view the world as a good thing, whereas the Elves want to be et'Ada, or the spirits which Aedra and Daedra and technically everything in Nirn is also...just a different sphere and form.

"Walk like them until you become like them." = The more pie you eat, the more in tune to gravity you are. The more you act and worship like the Aedra, the more connected to this world you become.

Sethyas...to toot my own horn...is in league with Mephala. The more he follows her path, the more in tune with her sphere he becomes. This is why Daedra worship is so frowned upon.

Edited to add: MK still does do some consulting work, and technically anything he would have made as an employee of Beth, becomes the intellectual property of Beth. Which is why he has such a powerful, if not small, following. He does it for the love of the lore, not material gain. I don't think the two dozen people that comprise the 'Cult of MK' (my words, never called as such) have too much of an effect on the Beths financial department.

But when you get into it, you realize that TES Lore is as deep as Tolkeins'. (Cue rabid LotR Fans to attack me.)



It has to be more than two dozen people, lol. But it was pretty cool to see the main storyline of Skyrim laid out in a paragraph by him (and possibly written even before Oblivion came out).
will79
QUOTE(Thomas Kaira @ Dec 18 2011, 10:48 PM) *

I just love how after you visit Paarthurnax, they have the audacity to order you around as if suddenly you serve them. And threatening to not support you anymore if you decline. What support? dragging me around Skyrim a couple times for some information I was scripted to obtain? When the Greybeards are the guys actually helping me grow my power? Who do those losers think they are?

I'm probably going to make a mod that makes those two non-essential at that point so that anyone who has an inkling to take the "to Oblivion with you" approach can give those two their just comeuppance.


That'd be another awesome mod.

The irony of this whole thing is that so many of us were looking forwards to Max's character, after hearing his voice in that trailer we watched so, so many times. Then after meeting him, you learn that he's a little bit of a douchebag, and for some reason you have greater affection for a formerly genocidal flying lizard who you have had precisely one conversation with.
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