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Grits

Yay, new section!! Thank you very much. smile.gif



For those who want to postpone the Main Quest for a dragon-free game, hereís what is working for me.

I have two characters who have told the Jarl of Whiterun about the dragon at Helgen but have not gone to Bleak Falls Barrow. There have not been any dragons in either of their games (other than Alduin at Helgen), and one is Level 19. I think it should be safe to go into Whiterun and even talk to the Jarl, if you stay out of BFB.

Of course you canít buy the Whiterun house without completing Dragon Rising, at least thatís my understanding.

It might be an even later event that starts the dragons, does anyone know? Maybe returning to the Jarl after the events in BFB. As soon as the next patch comes out for the PS3 Iíll do a little barrow diving and see what happens.

Thomas Kaira
I would think that dragons don't start appearing until you defeat the first one at East Watchtower and learn you are Dragonborn. That way, you don't see any until the game has introduced you to fighting them, and giving you a small army to help you out.
mALX
I too have avoided Bleak Falls Barrow in my game (thanks to King Coin's warning) - and am also enjoying a dragon-free game.

In fact, I actually "discovered" Bleak Falls Barrow by accident last week, and was scared to death I may have triggered the dragons.

I ran like a banshee (did NOT go inside at all). I watched the sky a LOT after that to see if any dragons appeared - really didn't want to have to load a previous save unless necessary.

So far (thank goodness) still having a great dragon-free game.
liliandra nadiar
You sure it's going into BFB that triggers dragons? I would think it would be either the Word, the druger boss or looting the dragonstone that would set it off. Giving the stone to Faragar sets off Dragon Rising so I had been thinking it was the trigger point for dragons.
Grits
QUOTE(liliandra nadiar @ Dec 9 2011, 11:40 AM) *

You sure it's going into BFB that triggers dragons? I would think it would be either the Word, the druger boss or looting the dragonstone that would set it off. Giving the stone to Faragar sets off Dragon Rising so I had been thinking it was the trigger point for dragons.

I think the trigger is probably somewhere in Dragon Rising like TK said. Staying out of BFB means you canít get the stone that starts the whole thing, which is easier for me to remember and my only safe recommendation. Iím going to try starting Dragon Rising and going as far as meeting Irileth at the Western Watchtower but not talking to the surviving guard for awhile and see what happens. I think the last conversation triggers Mirmulnir, and then itís dragons ho! I just donít remember which is the last conversation that the player initiates. Is it the one at the tower with Irileth, or does the player find the surviving guard there? Iím guessing that one of those is the point of no return. Thatís what Iím going to check.

As soon as we get the patch. smile.gif

liliandra nadiar
I know just approaching the tower will start the attack, once the guard starts walking down the ramp it starts. And he'll do that even if no one's near. Nither Irileth or I were close enough to trigger the conversation, and on two occasions Irileth and the guard hadn't even arrived yet.

As far as I remember, the last player triggered conversation is giving the stone to the mage. Don't know if the PC being there would have an effect on the conversation with the Jarl and the guard, I know Irelith and her 'pep-talk' will go with or without the PC. I think I'll do some testing of start up conditions as well.
mALX
All I know is, putting Bleak Falls Barrow on the map did not trigger it, but I'm not going inside and pressing my luck till I'm darn good and ready for dragons to pop out.

When I am ready, I'll retrieve the stone and then wander around, see if anything is different.


** Also, something to think about: In Oblivion the gates were set off by bringing Martin to Cloud Ruler Temple. After that you could trigger gates by walking through areas, but they wouldn't pop up till the next time you came through.

It may be the same with the dragons. Maybe going into Bleak Falls Barrow enables them, and the player triggers certain random ones by walking through areas - but won't see that dragon till the next time they walk through that particular place.
McBadgere
The trigger things for the Dragons is giving the stone to the Wizard in the Jarl's place...

I did the Golden Claw quest in BFB pretty much as soon as I started the game...You can do the whole thing...Beat the boss at the end, grab the Dragonstone (granted you can't then drop it and it weighs 25), then learn the word and no dragons...

I didn't start the MQ till I was in the Level 30s...I'm now Level 42...So now there's something about me, bayaybeeh soo riiiiight...*Cough*...Sorry...Decent English band alert!!...

Aaamywho...Methinks talking to the Jarl about Dragons is Taking The Amulet To Jauffre™ and giving the Dragonstone to the dude is Finding Martin™ which sets the whole thing off...
Grits
Good grief, I never thought about how much the stone would weigh. ohmy.gif I'm glad my characters aren't dragging that thing around! Just think of all the fur shoes they would have to leave behind when they're looting.
SubRosa
QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 9 2011, 10:44 PM) *

Good grief, I never thought about how much the stone would weigh.

For some reason you now have me thinking of the Simpson's/X-Files crossover, when Moe and crew and carrying the Killer Whale. "Who would've thought a whale could be so heavy?" wink.gif
Grits
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Dec 9 2011, 10:55 PM) *
For some reason you now have me thinking of the Simpson's/X-Files crossover, when Moe and crew and carrying the Killer Whale. "Who would've thought a whale could be so heavy?" wink.gif

laugh.gif D'oh!! I've been made lazy by Oblivion's zero weight quest items! tongue.gif
McBadgere
Btw...For all those wanting to do the Golden Claw thing in BFB, you can start it in Riverwood Trading in...Umm...Where was it again?...Damn...

Aaaanyways...If you just go in there you can get to the end by rescuing the dude from the spidey then searching him later, you get the claw from him...Then more exploring...But it belongs to the shop...

Just so you know...
mALX
QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 9 2011, 11:11 PM) *

Btw...For all those wanting to do the Golden Claw thing in BFB, you can start it in Riverwood Trading in...Umm...Where was it again?...Damn...

Aaaanyways...If you just go in there you can get to the end by rescuing the dude from the spidey then searching him later, you get the claw from him...Then more exploring...But it belongs to the shop...

Just so you know...



...Er...huh? So even if we find the claw on a dead guy, it is owned by someone else? Can we use it first before returning it to the traders?
Destri Melarg
WARNING MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!!!




My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that Dragon Rising incites the appearance of the dragons. You can go into Bleak Falls Barrow, claim the Golden Claw and the Dragonstone, and even make your way back to Dragonsreach. As long as you donít turn the Dragonstone over to Farengar you should be safe. I have actually gone into Farengarís office and eavesdropped on his conversation with Delphine with the Dragonstone in my inventory (I wanted to use the Arcane Enchanter). Then I left and literally walked (not ran) from Whiterun to Riften to Winterhold to Markarth with no further thoughts (or appearances) of dragons. When I went back eleven levels later Farengar was still talking to Delphine. Just be quick because the moment he finishes talking to Delphine he initiates conversation with you and takes the Dragonstone. Even then you can still get away without triggering the dragons as long as Irileth doesn't show up. When Irileth comes into the room and says: ďA dragon has been spotted . . .Ē that locks you into Dragon Rising, Mirmulnir, and the rest of the cliff racers, er . . . dragons.

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 10 2011, 07:55 AM) *

...Er...huh? So even if we find the claw on a dead guy, it is owned by someone else? Can we use it first before returning it to the traders?

Hint: You have to use it to get the Dragonstone. wink.gif
mALX
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 10 2011, 04:10 PM) *

WARNING MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
*snip*
Hint: You have to use it to get the Dragonstone. wink.gif



Well...I kind of figured that, lol. But I was not sure how one gets it into their own inventory with no stolen tags on it, lol.
liliandra nadiar
It's probably marked as a lootable quest item, so you can pick it up from the dark elf and use it, but not get rid of it until you talk to Lucy in the Riverwood Trader.
mALX
Well, having completed Bleak Flats Barrow for both the Golden Hand and the Court Wizard in Whiterun (but not completing either quest) last night - I went to Shearpoint and waited several days, plus fast traveled in several times - no dragons !! WOO HOO !!!

Before I shut everything down I was trying to get Throat of the World on my map without doing any quests to get there. So far no luck. Am seriously considering buying a horse and trying, lol.
Grits
I just ran through this with Jensa. Wow, if you're standing close enough everything just keeps happening. I thought there were dialog breaks, but nope. It's the way Destri described.


If I want to avoid dragons, I'll avoid picking up the Dragonstone in BFB. Otherwise my nerves will be wrecked every time I go in to talk to Farengar. I can see me getting my character stuck running against a table in panic while Irileth keeps getting closer. blink.gif
mALX
QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 12:48 PM) *

I just ran through this with Jensa. Wow, if you're standing close enough everything just keeps happening. I thought there were dialog breaks, but nope. It's the way Destri described.


If I want to avoid dragons, I'll avoid picking up the Dragonstone in BFB. Otherwise my nerves will be wrecked every time I go in to talk to Farengar. I can see me getting my character stuck running against a table in panic while Irileth keeps getting closer. blink.gif



Maybe you can run up to the deck and fast travel from there !!! Lol.
McBadgere
Erm...Couldn't you just avoid going to Dragonsreach?... biggrin.gif ...I did for absolutely ages...

And when I had to go there for a seperate quest I just kept backing out of the conversations with Irileth...
mALX
QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 17 2011, 01:53 PM) *

Erm...Couldn't you just avoid going to Dragonsreach?... biggrin.gif ...I did for absolutely ages...

And when I had to go there for a seperate quest I just kept backing out of the conversations with Irileth...



I finally went to Bleak Falls Barrow and got the Dragonstone - and like you have been avoiding going back into Dragonsreach again (or even bringing the golden claw to Riverwood). So far no dragons, so all is good.
Grits
QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 17 2011, 01:53 PM) *

Erm...Couldn't you just avoid going to Dragonsreach?... biggrin.gif ...I did for absolutely ages...

And when I had to go there for a seperate quest I just kept backing out of the conversations with Irileth...

Certainly yes, even the most marginally aware person could have the stone in hand and still sidestep the whole thing with grace.

I, however, once had a character in Oblivion run up to chat with that cute Legion Forester while being chased by Legionnaires. panic.gif I have to anticipate the ways I can screw it up.



McBadgere
laugh.gif ...Bless... biggrin.gif ...
mALX
QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 04:59 PM) *

QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 17 2011, 01:53 PM) *

Erm...Couldn't you just avoid going to Dragonsreach?... biggrin.gif ...I did for absolutely ages...

And when I had to go there for a seperate quest I just kept backing out of the conversations with Irileth...

Certainly yes, even the most marginally aware person could have the stone in hand and still sidestep the whole thing with grace.

I, however, once had a character in Oblivion run up to chat with that cute Legion Forester while being chased by Legionnaires. panic.gif I have to anticipate the ways I can screw it up.



So...er...what were you being chased by the Legion for? Hmmm? Lol.
liliandra nadiar
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 17 2011, 12:13 PM) *

QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 04:59 PM) *

QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 17 2011, 01:53 PM) *

Erm...Couldn't you just avoid going to Dragonsreach?... biggrin.gif ...I did for absolutely ages...

And when I had to go there for a seperate quest I just kept backing out of the conversations with Irileth...

Certainly yes, even the most marginally aware person could have the stone in hand and still sidestep the whole thing with grace.

I, however, once had a character in Oblivion run up to chat with that cute Legion Forester while being chased by Legionnaires. panic.gif I have to anticipate the ways I can screw it up.



So...er...what were you being chased by the Legion for? Hmmm? Lol.


Harassment I'm guessing. tongue.gif
mALX
QUOTE(liliandra nadiar @ Dec 17 2011, 05:18 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 17 2011, 12:13 PM) *

QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 04:59 PM) *

QUOTE(McBadgere @ Dec 17 2011, 01:53 PM) *

Erm...Couldn't you just avoid going to Dragonsreach?... biggrin.gif ...I did for absolutely ages...

And when I had to go there for a seperate quest I just kept backing out of the conversations with Irileth...

Certainly yes, even the most marginally aware person could have the stone in hand and still sidestep the whole thing with grace.

I, however, once had a character in Oblivion run up to chat with that cute Legion Forester while being chased by Legionnaires. panic.gif I have to anticipate the ways I can screw it up.



So...er...what were you being chased by the Legion for? Hmmm? Lol.


Harassment I'm guessing. tongue.gif



Lol !!! Sure makes one wonder, lol.
Grits
laugh.gif There was nudity involved. It was the aftermath of the Sanguine quest. She was not an accomplished criminal, so she ran. tongue.gif
mALX
QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 06:35 PM) *

laugh.gif There was nudity involved. It was the aftermath of the Sanguine quest. She was not an accomplished criminal, so she ran. tongue.gif



Huh? Was this in Oblivion?
Grits
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 17 2011, 08:45 PM) *
Huh? Was this in Oblivion?

Er, yes, I seem to have steered us a little off topic. whistling.gif
mALX
QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 08:57 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 17 2011, 08:45 PM) *
Huh? Was this in Oblivion?

Er, yes, I seem to have steered us a little off topic. whistling.gif



AHA !!! And I was just about to blame Bethesda for re-using the same quest over again, ROFL !!!
McBadgere
QUOTE(Grits @ Dec 17 2011, 11:35 PM) *

laugh.gif There was nudity involved. She was not an accomplished criminal, so she ran. tongue.gif


*Nods*...

*Walks off grinning*...
mirocu
I enjoy a gate-free Cyrodiil and Iīd enjoy a dragon-free Skyrim too. If I played it, that is biggrin.gif
Lady Saga
That's cool. I have had three Oblivion games with gates in them, and zero Skyrim ones with dragons.

OB: 3
Sky: 0

smile.gif


King Coin
I have one Skyrim game with dragons and one without. Oblivion, the majority of my games were gate free.
SubRosa
I have had 3 Skyrim games with partial dragons in them. Those are the ones I did the Civil War with. The only dragons in those games were Alduin at the start, and the one at the Western Watchtower that you have to kill in order to do the civil war. I disabled all the dragons from their lairs and random encounters so I would never see another one.

Otherwise I never have dragons.

Most of my Oblivion games were gate free. I think I had four maybe five that were not.
Destri Melarg
I don't think I ever played Oblivion with the gates active. laugh.gif

The only reason I continue to play Skyrim is to hunt dragons. I don't need dragonrend because it feels like cheating to me, so once I kill Sahloknir and unlock my full Fus Ro Dah I don't touch the MQ again. I would actually hate this game if it weren't for the dragons!
King Coin
The dragons are a lot of fun to fight, and make for great screen shots! I just wish that they were a little bit more challenging. I use a mod that boosts their hitpoints and changes their attack behavior (so they do more flying passes) but they still don't last very long when they land.
mALX
QUOTE(mirocu @ Feb 10 2013, 02:57 PM) *

I enjoy a gate-free Cyrodiil and Iīd enjoy a dragon-free Skyrim too. If I played it, that is biggrin.gif



I played one game, and completely dragon free. Did a lot of exploring (235 locations on map), began some questlines and finished the College of Winterhold questline. I preferred the radiant quests, to be honest. As long as you never return the stone from the Barrow to the Court Mage in Whiterun the dragons never start.
Kiln
I hate dragons and think they appear way too often. It really ruins my game.

I'll probably restart soon and play dragon free so I can actually enjoy myself.

So can I get a confirmation that the trigger for dragon spawns is actually getting and turning in the item and NOT killing the Whiterun dragon?
King Coin
Don't turn in the dragon stone and you'll have a dragon free game. Leave it where you find it.
mALX
QUOTE(Kiln @ Feb 10 2013, 11:42 PM) *

I hate dragons and think they appear way too often. It really ruins my game.

I'll probably restart soon and play dragon free so I can actually enjoy myself.

So can I get a confirmation that the trigger for dragon spawns is actually getting and turning in the item and NOT killing the Whiterun dragon?


You can get the stone, just don't talk to the Court Mage afterward - you'll have to carry it with you in your inventory.

That also means best buy up all the spells you want from the Court Mage before going after the stone, it will be your last chance to talk to him and buy them if you aren't turning in the stone. (and he's got some great spells).

SubRosa
QUOTE(King Coin @ Feb 10 2013, 11:45 PM) *

Don't turn in the dragon stone and you'll have a dragon free game. Leave it where you find it.

Yes. Basically just never pick it up. It weighs a ton, and there is no sense dragging it around with you if you are not going to complete the quest.
mALX
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Feb 11 2013, 12:41 AM) *

QUOTE(King Coin @ Feb 10 2013, 11:45 PM) *

Don't turn in the dragon stone and you'll have a dragon free game. Leave it where you find it.

Yes. Basically just never pick it up. It weighs a ton, and there is no sense dragging it around with you if you are not going to complete the quest.



Good idea. It weighs like 25 pounds according to what your game journal says, but KC told me that weighted quest items were fixed with one of the patches. Better be safe than sorry and never pick it up though, SubRosa is right!

(DOH! Why didn't I think of that?)
King Coin
QUOTE(mALX @ Feb 10 2013, 11:47 PM) *

Good idea. It weighs like 25 pounds according to what your game journal says, but KC told me that weighted quest items were fixed with one of the patches. Better be safe than sorry and never pick it up though, SubRosa is right!

(DOH! Why didn't I think of that?)

Did I say that? They aren't, so don't grab it!
Lady Saga
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Feb 10 2013, 07:12 PM) *

I have had 3 Skyrim games with partial dragons in them. Those are the ones I did the Civil War with. The only dragons in those games were Alduin at the start, and the one at the Western Watchtower that you have to kill in order to do the civil war.


Dang...there's one during the Civil War? I mean, it would be okay if there was only that ONE dragon, but you're saying that random ones can start showing up after that one at Western Watchtower?

QUOTE(Kiln @ Feb 10 2013, 11:42 PM) *

I hate dragons and think they appear way too often. It really ruins my game.


This is what I am afraid of; why I've never gone down the path of including dragons at all. In tabletop games like DnD, dragons can appear randomly, but it's usually a really small chance that this will happen. Like maybe 1 or 2 out of 100 chance to encounter a dragon. If they just show up all the time in Skyrim, not only would this get on my nerves, but encountering them would not be as special.

mALX
QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 11 2013, 11:24 AM) *

This is what I am afraid of; why I've never gone down the path of including dragons at all. In tabletop games like DnD, dragons can appear randomly, but it's usually a really small chance that this will happen. Like maybe 1 or 2 out of 100 chance to encounter a dragon. If they just show up all the time in Skyrim, not only would this get on my nerves, but encountering them would not be as special.



QFT, and well said. Agreed.
SubRosa
QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 11 2013, 11:24 AM) *

Dang...there's one during the Civil War? I mean, it would be okay if there was only that ONE dragon, but you're saying that random ones can start showing up after that one at Western Watchtower?

To go past the 2nd or 3rd quest in the Civil War questline you have to deliver the Dragonstone to Farengar, and kill the dragon that appears at Whiterun's Western Watchtower immediately after. Once you deliver that stone and kill the dragon, dragons are unleashed upon the world. They appear at every dragon lair in Skyrim (about a dozen of them, places like Bownstrewn Crest, Mount Anhtor, Spearpoint, etc...) They also start appearing in random encounters which are timed to always happen every two or three days. So you will always be fighting dragons. Even after the main quest ends, the random dragons never stop, and unless you kill them, those in the lairs will never go away.


QUOTE(Kiln @ Feb 10 2013, 11:42 PM) *

I hate dragons and think they appear way too often. It really ruins my game.

I like dragons, and think they appear way too often. laugh.gif I think that dragons ought to be a seriously high level boss. I don't mean the critter at the end of the dungeon with a lot of hit points. I mean they ought to be the leaders of guilds, manipulating kings and queens from behind the scenes with their machinations. As Renee feared, they cease to be something special. Skyrim turns them into cliffracers.
mALX
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Feb 11 2013, 12:34 PM) *

I like dragons, and think they appear way too often. laugh.gif I think that dragons ought to be a seriously high level boss. I don't mean they critter at the end of the dungeon with a lot of hit points. I mean they ought to be the leaders of guilds, manipulating kings and queens from behind the scenes with their machinations. As Renee feared, they cease to be something special. Skyrim turns them into cliffracers.



That idea is huge! What a game and storyline that would make!
Lady Saga
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Feb 11 2013, 12:34 PM) *

Even after the main quest ends, the random dragons never stop, and unless you kill them, those in the lairs will never go away.


hamster cave god dammit. That hamster cave sucks. rolleyes.gif Guess I'm never doing Civil War then. EDIT: not until I have a PC, at least. I will CK that compassion away. Goodbye!

SubRosa
QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 11 2013, 01:59 PM) *

hamster cave god dammit. That hamster cave sucks. rolleyes.gif Guess I'm never doing Civil War then. EDIT: not until I have a PC, at least. I will CK that compassion away. Goodbye!

It is not that hard to do thankfully. There is a mod out there that removes the random dragon encounters already. I took that and further modded it to remove all the dragons from their lairs. Presto, no dragons except for the ones spawned by quests.
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