Welcome! Which side are you on? Are you a strong, patriotic Stormcloak? Or are you a loyal, sophisticated Imperial? What about a powerful Thalmor Mage? Do you believe Ulfric Stormcloak truly cares about the good people of Skyrim, and agree that the Empire has turned it's back on Skyrim and Talos, or do you believe that the Stormcloaks are just a bunch of rebels, under a false leader who cares about nobody but himself? Perhaps you're a Thalmor agent who's just going to sit back and enjoy the show?

Please no arguing, insulting, flaming, etc, etc. Debates are welcome as long as they don't get out of hand. In this thread you can pick what side you chose and explain why.

Thank You,
-KoB

I chose the Stormcloaks. Honestly, the empire turned their backs on all of Tamriel, and abandoning Talos made everything worse. I think Titus Mede is a complete coward. I don't think Uriel Septim would have surrendered to the Thalmor even if he was at the wrong end of a Thalmor blade. He'd want the empire to keep fighting.

Truthfully, I think Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist, self centered [censored], but he does have a good cause.

I smell a civil war coming...

I picked Stormcloaks. Yes, they are a bit racist, but they're also fighting the Thalmor. And I really, really hate those guys.

The Redguards of Hammerfell. Fought the Dominion to a standstill to the point that they forced the highly militaristic elves to a peace treaty.

They forced. The Dominion. Who believes so much in their racial they crown themselves the master race. Who doesn't believe in any sort of peace between the 'lesser' races.

To a godsdamned peace treaty.

All by their own.

Bad. @ss.

I agree with you on that 100% I just HATE the Thalmor. Not because they are elves, but because they banned the worship of Talos and think elves are the SUPERIOR race. I'm fine with elves, but I don't think there is a superior race.

I support High King Balgruuf the Greater.

He's the only candidate that will advance the claim of a new Dragonborn Emperor over all Tamriel.

Thalmor can suck it when I fly a full wing of Legendary, Revered, and Elder Dragons to fire-and-frost-bomb Alinor.

Will probably need dragon-carriers. But, Ice Form Shout + Ship building = Habbakuk.

HEAR, HEAR! As long as someone Horrible doesn't show up with a freeze ray, you'll be good

The Empire. I would admire them even more if they adopted Thalmor tactics and used it to subjugate their enemies.

I'd admire them even if more if they'd actually won the war against the friggin' Thalmor.

I would too, if they used the same tactics and inquisitorial talents the Thalmor did. They would more efficient, and they would fighting the Thalmor in their own game. You think the Thalmor got to their level of power by being too forward? They were sneaky, deceitful and perfect! I haste them, and I would rather see the Empire be like that, only because I dislike High Elves and the Thalmor's final goal is ridiculous! Seriously, turning Nirn into the Spirit Realm?

I voted Imperial. Read about the Battle of the Red Ring and how they took back the Imperial City from the Thalmor and what happened to the Thalmor general.

Stormcloaks, personally. They want to worship Talos and run their own land, and the Imperials should back off and let them. The Imperials merely joined took the lesser evil road (giving in to the Thalmor) rather than truely facing up to them. I understand why they did this, but I still vote Stormcloaks.

None of my characters have truely chosen and joined a side. Lord Haaf-Mersey and a couple of my others are Stormcloak sympathizers, but they have no desire to join them officially in the Civil war itself.

Hmm, I have a hard time making myself join the Stormcloaks. I just can't, even with a character who is best described as an amoral murderhappy honoured user. I had to go full force into evil territory with a Thalmor spy before I could and it still leaves me uncomfortable.

The way I see it, the civil war is nothing but good for the Thalmor. Ulfric ruins the Empire's ability to recover from the last war and prepare for the next. If Ulfric wins, the empire will have to commit even more manpower and resources to stopping him because I don't see the man stopping at just one province. If that dragon hadn't showed up at the beginning of the game, either Skyrim would have gone up in flames with martyr Ulfric, or Tullius would have taken control and restored the peace. Either way, the empire would not have to worry about the northern unrest anymore. (Hence the insertion of a Thalmor. In case they couldn't convince Tullius to give up Ulfric, who would then conveniently escape and renew the war, the spy would save him and infiltrate his court.)



But that is mere pragmatism I suppose. The real issues I have with the Stormcloaks start with the cart-ride. Ralof really comes across as too much of a brainwashed fanatic for me to like him and it only gets worse from there. I don't want Ulfric as High King. I don't want a guy who surrounds himself with bootlickers, who monologues to himself on how he is a true Nord who must be High King. I don't want a Sith High King who deals in absolutes. (You're either with me, or against me!)

Talos? Thalmor? Sure, the Stormcloaks yabber on about that, but they also keep yabbering on about Ulfric. Their personal anthem (which is as bad as the Imperial one, mind you) finds it important to repeat how awesome and totally kingly Ulfric is, while refusing to mention Talos and the Thalmor.



Then there is the true Nordness and upholding of the old traditions. Yes, it sounds nice on paper. But Ulfric is only a traditions guy when it is convenient to him. Kill the High King through trial of combat? Hell yes! Let us ignore on how I used the voice which the High King probably never even saw before. It shows how the High King lacked the ambition and commitment or something. (More like he lacked the training in fus-ing.) Also, the voice is a ranged weapon, which by its nature I would say disqualifies Ulfric in a presumably melee-duel.

But let the Moot happen, one of those other Nordly traditions? Hell no! They would not bend down and kiss Ulfric's boots! So damn the Jarls and damn the Moot! Let us grab some old crown thingy and tell everyone it is some super awesome duper crown that only the High King can wear (Ulfric). That will show them!


Oh, and I suppose there are the parts where Windhelm is a ghetto and falling to pieces in crime while Ulfric plays warlord, but that's really secondary to the whole cult of personality and fanaticism thing.


To be honest, I don't even care about Talos all that much. So what if you aren't allowed to publically worship the guy? It was an open secret that nobody, Empire and Nords, gave a damn about the concordat until Ulfric started screaming about it and invading the other holds.


So I'm not Stormcloak. Am I empire? I don't know. I haven't really investigated the other side of the coin in any depth yet. I doubt the civil war will really matter though. Given current tendencies, two weeks after the completion of the main quest, Dragonborn runs of to Atmora in search for Ysgramor's holy loincloth. Then Tullius and Ulfric both die, avalanches wipe out all of Skyrim and Falmer play football with Nord heads. Meanwhile, the Thalmor laugh.

Enjoyable read, the ending paragraph especially.


In short, I've found Ulfric to be a d*ck as well.

He is a big floppy butthead. I don't like him, nor the Thalmor, and feel like the Empire is only doing what needs to be done to survive. But I'm not on their side either. With my first playthrough I played Empire's side because I wanted to see the ending of the quest.

I am not a big fan of depriving people of their right to self determination. Perhaps that is because as an American, I come from a nation that was born from people overthrowing what we saw as the tyranny of a foreign power. Nor do I support religious oppression, especially not when it means the kidnapping, torture, and murder of anyone accused of worshiping the 'wrong' deity. Plus, I find that collaborating with an enemy that wants to destroy you is just plain stupid. Finally, when people try to cut my head off for shits and giggles, it really ticks me off.

Ralof was right, you really did see the true face of the Empire at Helgen. It is a state where people are kidnapped and murdered without any sort of legal recourse. The Imperials not only never gave you a fair trial or even the chance to explain yourself, they never gave the Stormcloaks any sort of trial at all. No one was going to get any sort of say at all there. There was not even a five minute drumhead affair where the outcome was already decided. Even tyrants like Henry VIII gave people a show trial followed by a first-class beheading. Instead these are people who murder prisoners of war out of hand, and it is so routine that no one even questions it. Given that they have allowed the Thalmor free reign to roam about the Empire and do the same to whoever they please, it really shows how low the Empire has sunk. Once upon a time an Emperor gave his life for the people of Tamriel. Now the Emperor gives the lives of everyone else for his own safety and comfort.

So I have to go with Stormcloaks here.

This is an accurate assessment, but I'd say it's an ultimately flawed (and pretty damn cynical at points; Ralof being brainwashed? Really?) conclusion; yes, Ulfric is not a nice person and maybe somewhat hypocritical, but out of all the big players in Skyrim he's the only one who demonstrates the drive, determination and, most importantly of all, ability to actually make Skyrim into a stable, free nation. And considering that the alternatives are the Thalmor who seem to be quite happy to kill or oppress every non elf or an empire that's proven that it's no longer strong enough to call itself an empire and lacks the power to secure its own borders or the freedom of its citizens, Ulfric seems to be the best of a bad bunch; even if they're not perfect, the Stormcloaks seem to actually have the best interests of Skyrim at heart.

Ideally, however, I'd have liked it if you'd have been able to broker a proper peace treaty between the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloaks in order to give the Thalmor a proper good kicking in not just Skyrim but in a good chunk of the rest of Cyrodiil, but I can see that being a bit of a stretch, storytelling-wise. The moral ambiguity and the fact that the game makes you think about your choices is better writing, I'd say.

It's two against one, basically. Thalmor and Imperials against the Stormcloaks. So yeah, it's in the Thalmor's best interest to have an ally they can now use to help them conquer other lands.

I wonder if the next TES game will be taking down the Thalmor after they've gained control over all provinces except one small one.

Picture it: You're a prisoner of the Thalmor, and you're aided in escape by a n individual who "heard" you might fight the Thalmor. Then you could choose which side to be on, Thalmor or rebels.

Rumour has it that the next TES game may be set in the Summerset Isles, so something a bit like that could be the case, just set in the Isles.

I kind of hope that once they finish with all provinces, they circle back and keep going.

That would be 8 games, so it will take a while! But I do agree, it would be nice to eventually see a game set in High Rock again, or Cyrodiil. I would love to see Summerset first though, or Black Marsh.

Seconded. But I'd live for TES VI to be set in Hammerfell; the political situation there with the Forebears and the Crowns would make for plenty of choice for the players, and the setting itself would be a great one, I'd say, and rather different from the other games.

TES VI should be set in black marsh. It would be pretty epic....

The The Tamriel Rebuilt - Art of Hammerfell book has some really amazing concepts in it. If Bethesda put just half of it in a game, it would be really interesting. But that said, the only thing I would not like about Hammerfell being next is that it would mean more Dwemer ruins everywhere. After Skyrim, I am in the mood for a province with a different extinct elven race's ruins (since every province seems to need one).

-snort!-

Oooh, shiny!

To be honest, one of thing I'd like about Hammerfell setting would be the prospect of EVEN MOAR Dwemer ruins to poke around in; the lack of them in Oblivion was a real bummer for me. But each to their own, I guess.

Ignoring the derail for the moment. (Valenwood or Black Marsh is my choice)

Ralof probably isn't brainwashed. Hell, he actually says at some point that he isn't sure if Ulfric really is the best choice, just that he is better than relying on the empire. He also wonders if stopping the civil war and ganging up on the dragons isn't a better idea, which makes him much smarter than Galmar. Heck, Galmar is basically a bundle of bloodlust and 'Ulfric, you are absolutely right and we all want you'.

The problem that turned me off from him is that the intro really pushes too hard. On the Stormcloak side we get chilled out Ralof who chooses to face his death with dignity and tells Lokir he should do the same. The only time he gets angry is when Lokir doesn't know who Ulfric is.

Meanwhile on the Imperial side we have Hadvar, who while a nice guy, is a bit passive. When captain umbrella seller goes 'damn the list', he instantly snaps 'by your orders'. He doesn't try to argue or anything. captain umbrella seller has the voice of a real tryhard anyway, as if she's trying to impress general Tullius by showing how hard on crime she is. The Imperials also feature torturemaster creepy, who is exactly what his title suggests. So in the end, the intro very heavily pushes the player into the Stormcloak camp. And that is where I break. I'm just a paranoid at that point, thinking that it is too good to be true. And so I swing way too far to the opposite side than Bethesda intended.


If we take away Ulfric, and bloodthirsty bandits with a fancy title like Galmar, the Stormcloaks end up looking better than the empire actually. I don't think you can prepare for another war with the Thalmor effectively if you let them infiltrate you from top to bottom. It just doesn't fool anyone. The Thalmor know the war is coming, you know the war is coming, and you give them all the tools they need to screw you over before it even starts!


So after long internal debate, I am a Stormcloak. Under new management.


Edit: Because it isn't worth making another post so fast.
I
V
Morrowind had Dwemer and Daedric ruins.

If I'm not mistaken, each game has their own particular set of ruins they focus on, correct? IN Oblivion is was Ayleid, in Skyrim it was Dwarven...and that's the extent of my knowledge of the games.

Valenwood all the way!

Imagine the jungles, and with that the scope for environment creation, flora and fauna! Not to mention the ancient Elven ruins. I would hope a majority of the play would be vertical as well, from roots to canopy.

I'd love to see a moving tree capital as well (though they say its rooted itself now.)

Bethesda could go nuts with it. More bird types (though don't seem too prevalent in the last two games), more bugs and beetles.

Really hope they do it justice in TES: Online

This one. I'll buy the next TES no matter which province is next, but I would really want to see Valenwood. Second pick for me would probably be Elsweyr. Third: Black Marsh.

I've been anticipating Elswyr since Oblivion came out. But even so, Black Marsh is a close second. Beast Folk don't get a lot of recognition in the human provinces.

In still rooting for black marsh. Imagine how cool that place must look. Elsywyr(sp?) would be a good second choice though....

Either Elsweyr or Hammerfell. I want a sandy Arabian/Middle Eastern setting in the ES, and Khajiit and Redguards are heavily influenced by Morrocan and Middle Eastern cultures.

Here is Elsweyr in ES online. Here's Hammerfell.

I'm making a thread on what province you want the next TES game to be in now...

From the desk of Anduial, Arch Mage of the College of Winterhold, and Thalmor Emissary to Skyrim:

I have studied this debate with great interest, and your words have moved me to take up the quill in my people’s defense.

For those of you who believe in the cowardice of Titus Mede: I suppose that devotion such as yours is not swayed by the counter argument that, with the full might of the Imperial Legion at his disposal, your heroic seventh Septim met his cowardly end in the sewers under his own castle while fleeing the wrath of fanatics of a marginal cult. Nor would I suppose that you care to mention that, upon discovery of the Empress Caula Voria’s true nature, your esteemed Emperor chose accommodation over conflict. Not only did he remain married to her, but he stooped to using their own children as pawns in the machinations they leveled against each other behind the closed doors of the White Gold Palace.

His biographer, Rufus Hayn, describes your sainted Uriel as ‘grave, patient, and cautious.’ He also says that he had become ‘conservative and pessimistic.’ Now I will grant that this change in his demeanor can be directly attributed to his decade-long imprisonment in Oblivion, an ordeal which would have surely broken most mortals. But I will also submit to you that this version of Uriel VII would not have been likely to run around smiting his foes with Goldbrand ... as Titus Mede did in the Battle of the Red Ring. Be careful where you assign courage!

To those who champion the Redguard cause: Lady Arranelya’s single army, alone, cut off from re-supply or reinforcement by the shackles of the White Gold Concordant, still manages to hold out for FIVE years against the combined might of an entire country full of Crowns and Forebears, reinforced by an illegally assembled Imperial reserve. Yes, we signed the Second Treaty of Stros M’Kai, but that was because southern Hammerfell was in ruins, the Alik’r takes up most of the middle of the country, and nobody really cares about the Wrothgarians. That leaves Sentinel, and it wasn’t considered enough of a reward given the time and resources needed to maintain it.

Here is the crux of misunderstanding. Personally I despise the term ‘lesser races.‘ I would prefer the term ‘other races.’ Not because I adhere to some naive assertion that all the races are equal. They simply aren’t. An example: I have spent more than two human lifetimes devoted to the study of the arcane and martial arts, and I am still several centuries away from my physical prime. That means I am capable of achieving a proficiency in anything I choose to undertake beyond the grasp of any human or beast. By definition that makes the races of mer superior to the other races. Notice I said capable, not assured, and this brings me to my reason for despising ‘lesser races’ as a term. Even the so-called ‘lesser races’ have it within them to achieve the extraordinary. All races contain that spark of the divine, the problem is that the gift that was bequeathed to you was stolen from us!

Before You condemn us for what you believe are our opinions on the nature of the races, you must be willing to step outside your perception as Human, Argonian, or Khajiit and see things from our point of view. Can you do that? Despite the preponderance of evidence that suggests otherwise, I believe that you can. You revere Lorkhan because he lifted you from something worse than nothingness. Now, whether you call him Shor or Sep or Shezarr, he is the one that raised you from non-existence to something approaching the divine. He gave you mortality by stealing immortality from us. You were raised, and in the raising our existing divinity was sundered. This is not opinion . . . this is fact!

Is this so hard for you to grasp? By your own admission you believe that, given the proper circumstances, a mortal can be lifted into the pantheon of the divine. Is it so hard to reason that the reverse may also be true? Is it not possible for the divine to be sundered from its station to languish on the fields of Nirn? I know you believe this to be true because you will all acknowledge that this is exactly what happened to Shor/Sep/Shezzar/Lorkhan. Why is it that you insist that I must recognize the divinity of your mantled hero while you refuse to recognize mine? Who is truly intolerant in this situation?

Imagine yourselves as divine aspects of the Et’Ada, or Original Spirits. Imagine that the smallest particle lifted by the gentlest breeze caressing the Gray Maybe does not pass unnoticed. Now imagine that another spirit deceives you into using your divinity to create something that will serve only to validate its own existence. By the time the deception is known to you it is too late to stop it. Your divinity remains untouched, but your consciousness is ripped from that divinity and spawned anew under the yoke of mortality in this Mundas that you were deceived into creating. And as if that were not enough, the particle that you noticed but a moment before has been gifted with a portion of your divine spark. It now calls itself man, wears armor, wields weapons and magic, and proclaims itself your equal!

How would you, as the 'other races' react?

Destri Melarg has a point here. I honestly don't think elves are the superior race, but we should look at things from their POV as well.

And about Titus Mede....

I still truly think he was a coward. If he was brave enough to run around killing people with gold brand during the battle of the red ring, why would he bend his knee to the Thalmor? Seriously?! I have no love for the Thalmor, but even they probably would consider that a cowardly act. No wonder why the see the other races as 'lesser races'.

The Thalmor should consider looking at life through the POV of the rest if the races though, instead if scolding everyone else for not seeing life from their POV. So Hear me out:

Thalmor! You scold the other races for not seeing through your POV. Have you ever considered looking through theirs? Have you not seen the grief and suffering you've caused to numberless families? You wonder why the other races look upon you with hatred and disgust, yet you don't look with your eyes, only with your ego. What makes you the more superior race? True, the other races can be cruel, but why stoop down to their level? Do you not have the ability to reason and look upon the other races as brothers and sisters instead of bitter enemies?

Other Races! Why do you not through the eyes if the Thalmor? Surely you cannot be so blind and self-centered to want everyone to see through your POV! You believe the Thalmor are heartless monsters, but how do you know? The elves have families. They can love, and care, and worry. They've simply become fed up with the harsh words you speak to them with, and they decided enough is enough. Can we not consider the elves EQUAL to us instead of heartless scum that want nothing more that to watch other people, be it beast or man, suffer? Yes, the Thalmor can be snobbish, but not everyone on the world is kind. Can we not get along.

Must we kill each-other over pointless reasons? The divines frown upon brothers waging meaningless wars! We are one nation! Tamriel stands proud as the crown jewel of nirn, yet brothers and sisters bicker for no good reason. Must everything end in violence?

I think he's more misunderstood.

His Empire is in tatters, the White Tower in ruin, his soldiers weary after years of war.

I think he did it for the people! Yes he won a great victory, but it was also at great cost.

I never said he was a bad emperor. Only a coward

No that's what I'm getting at. He didn't sign the treaty out of cowardice. He did out of necessity!

I respect your opinion and I can understand that the Imperial Army was definitely weakening every day and that the Thalmor creamed them but come on.....

The emperor should at least tried to fight back himself instead of signing the white-gold concordat, even if it was necessary. Your debating with a die-hard stormcloak pretty much so I still consider Titus a coward. He may not be one completely, but he's still a coward. At least in my opinion.

Where was gold brand when he needed it

Honestly, I enjoy a good debate as long as it doesn't get out of hand and we aren't fighting each other with our teeth bared and weapons drawn.

Hahaha die-hard Imperial here. We're practically Hadvar and Ralof.

you couldn't possibly be anymore right about that.

Still, I respect your opinion and the fact you are an die-hard imperial. If you want the truth, I don't like Ulfric too much. He's an racist [censored].

As do I, friend Ralof!

Don't get me wrong I hate the Thalmor, but the last thing the Empire needs right now is division. It's what the damn elves want!

The Stormcloaks intentions are true and honest, if a little prejudiced. Their timing and choice of enemy however is not so admirable.

FINALLY! Someone who sees the Thalmor as I do! (no disrespect to any Thalmor fans out there....) but it is true that the Thalmor want us to destroy each other. Who could possibly benefit more from a civil war that the Thalmor?

From the Desk of Anduial, Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold, and Thalmor Emissary to Skyrim:

Understand that what you are about to see places both of our lives in the most extreme peril! I cannot stress enough the importance of you burning this missive once you have reviewed it's contents. And I don't have to tell you that this discussion should not be repeated.

Anywhere.

Top Secret *SPOILER ALERT* - Do not click if you hate having inside information.

Do you see? It matters not whose side you take in the Civil War. Either way victory will belong to the Thalmor.

I go to that site all the time I'm a filthy cheater, lol.

Hahah I've seen that too!

Thalmor agents are everywhere Destri. Better cover that up lest we all get the attention of Justiciars.

-Hides amulet of Talos in shirty and whistles- There's nothing going on here, just move along.....