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SubRosa
Since it stirred up a few posts worth of talk in the What Are You Playing topic, I thought I would make the Kotor games a thread of their own.

I'll start with some handy tips for playing them on a modern computer. First off getting them to install on a 64 bit OS is probably not likely. But Gog.com has them for $10 each, and their installs will work on Windows 7 (I haven't tried them on my Win 8 tablet, and I don't have Win 10, but I am sure they work on those OSes as well). There are probably some modder-built installers floating around the internets if you still have the old cds as well.

In any case, neither game can do 1920 x 1080 resolution out of the box. But you can get it on each.


The only way I know for Kotor 1 is to use Flawless Widescreen. You have to start it first, select the Kotor profile, and leave it running. Then start Kotor 1 itself and go to the graphics options to set the resolution there to anything different from what you find it. 1920 x 1080 won't be there the first time you try. But change the resolution to something anyway. Flawless Widescreen is a memory hack, that detects the change in resolutions and then tries to add in the higher resolutions. Exit the game, restart it, and 1920 x 1080 might be there the second time. If not, go for a third time, etc... Sometimes it comes up the second time. Sometimes even after six or seven times it does not. If I go that long I turn off Flawless Widescreen and open it again. Usually then the next time you start Kotor you have the higher resolutions. Sadly, you have to do this every time you play the game.


Kotor 2 has a slightly more complicated fix, but at least you only have to do it once, and then you will always have the high resolution.

Start the game and set it to the highest resolution available, then exit it.

Run the Universal Widescreen Patcher. Select the Kotor2 profile, tell it where the game is on the computer, and put in the resolution you want (1920 x 1080).

Go to your Kotor 2 folder and open swkotor2.ini file. Find the lines for Height and Width and change them to 1080 and 1920 respectively.

Copy the Widescreen UI Fix to the Kotor2\Override folder.

Done!


Steam has the revamped version of Kotor 2 done by Aspyr. It has the advantage of high resolutions built in without need of all the work above. But other than that it does not really add anything I personally care about. It is all Steam achievements, Steam cloud saves, controller support, and so on. The native 5k support would be handy for folks like ghastley that use multiple monitors though. But I think that can be done as with a hack (not positive though). I am glad I did not buy it this way, as I got everything I wanted from the Gog version, without the added joy of DRM.



On to mods.
Kotor 1 & 2
Kotor Tool - A modding tool that allows you to extract and mod the game's files.

Kotor Savegame Editor - A savegame editor that allows you to modify all of your stats, and those of your companions. It works on both games. One really cool thing about it is that it allows you to edit your inventory, and modded items will show up in the editor. So you don't need to use the command console to add them within the game.


Kotor 1
Lightsaber Choices - When you construct your lightsaber on Dantoine, this mod gives you more options in the choice of your color crystal, what type of saber (standard, short, or double), and lets you create a second one too if you want to dual wield.

90SK's K1 Robes - changes the look of the jedi robes, based on the Bastila robes. A big improvement over the vanilla look.

Deadly Stream has a huge amount of Kotor mods. Of course there is a Kotor 1 Nexus site, and Gamewatcher has a few Kotor 1 mods


Kotor 2
First and foremost is the Sith Lords Restored Content Mod, which puts a ton of stuff back into that game that never got used in the release version. I am using it now for the first time, but since I have not gotten far, I cannot say just how much it really changes. It sounds like it adds an awful lot though.

Again Deadly Stream has a bunch of Kotor 2 mods. The Nexus has a Kotor 2 site and Gamewatcher has a Kotor 2 mod site as well.
mALX


This is Awesome! Your advice in these things is so appreciated! Thank you so much!



Callidus Thorn
I've been meaning to try and install those games on my laptop. I've got a thread bookmarked from a while back with details on how to get the games running on windows vista/7, since I've got the old cd versions.

Then again, I might just treat myself after my birthday and get them off of Gog, just to avoid the hassle. That said, I'm not sure that my laptop will run it too well, since I'm stuck with integrated graphics sad.gif
Acadian
It can certainly take a lot to get old games running well on current machines. And for any interested in this game, your detailed help is a wonderful resource! Thanks for sharing your experience so that anyone trying the same path has an easier time of it. smile.gif
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 22 2015, 08:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 21 2015, 04:32 PM) *

In all honesty I found KotOR slightly disappointing. Then again I'd played KotOR 2 first, so there were some things that just weren't as smooth, even though the story was better. In both games I gravitated towards the Jedi Sentinel. Stealth and the Force(and, in my case, a pair of pistols and a dual-bladed lightsaber biggrin.gif )? Yes please! Though I will admit that palying as a Consular could be amusing, if only for the sheer overload of Force powers you can bring to bear.

I can't remember who I used most, I think it might have been Bastila and Canderous, but I've always had a soft spot for Madalorians. I also found HK-47 to be amusing, in both games.

I did once try a dark side run, but that ended up with me trying to force my way through the end game with Canderous and HK-47 backing me up. Needless to say, it did not go well.

And I think the Ebon Hawk might well be my favourite ship in the Star Wars universe, mostly because of its looks. And it's just so much better than the Millenium Falcon was. laugh.gif

Kotor 2 could have been an absolute masterpiece if Obsidian would have been given the time they needed to properly complete the game. As it is it is a flawed swing for the fences that still works on some admirably subtle levels. In that way it seems a lot like the game equivalent of a Kubrick film. Kreia is, without question, my favorite character in the entire Star Wars universe, and Kelly Hu's voice for Visas Marr is like being submerged in a pool of warm honey…

Mmmmmmmmm, honey.


Yeah, it's a shame that Obsidian weren't given all the time that they needed, but, since it's Obsidian, it would still have been buggy laugh.gif Though I do think that the Jedi count in the game was a little on the high side.

I don't know that I'd call Kreia my favourite character from the Star Wars universe, but she's certainly up there. And I loved all those little hints she dropped about Revan and what happened to him. And it was nice to see a force user who didn't push for a choice between light or dark, but somewhere in between.

Iirc, while Visas had a great voice, I don't think I ever used her much. I tended to play as a Sentinel, so I didn't really need another on the team, and I don't think she was set up particularly well for it anyway. I do remember that I always went through all the conversations possible with her biggrin.gif
SubRosa
Kreia just annoys me to no end. I am only just getting started on Kotor 2, but as I recall she berates you ceaselessly about whatever choices you make, dark or light. If you give a starving person a fish to eat she excoriates you for rewarding their helplessness and preventing them from learning to stand on their own two feet. If you just kill them and take all their credits she chastises you for tyrannizing the weak. But as I recall, the game never gives you the option of taking a neutral path, and teaching the person to fish, so they can feed themselves for the rest of their lives. If the game actually allowed you to take a middle path she would be a useful character. But as I recall, the game still forces you into either the stereotypical good or evil routes, with no other options. That made Kreia just a pain the rear whom I never want to waste my time talking to.

Or I might honestly be mis-remembering. It has been a very long time since I played Kotor 2. To the point where I am not entirely sure what things are from the mods I am now using, and what was part of the vanilla game. If the game really does offer a neutral path, then I am sure I will warm up to Kreia this time around.

Visas always made my heart go pitter-patter. She was always in my party whenever I had the chance. I was always trying to peek up into that hood of hers to see if she really had eyes or not! laugh.gif Multiple Jedi are a pain the rear to micro-manage. There are just too many powers, and the wear off too quickly. It takes forever to buff up before going through a door, especially when you find there is nothing on the other side.

And Destri, I did go to that Dark Side! Her name was Jaelyn. It was over between us a long time ago, but I honestly still dream about her to this day. Come to think of it, she is the one who introduced me to the Kotor games, and loaned me my first copies to try them out. smile.gif The dark-side consular was her favorite class, for just the reasons you mentioned. There was always plenty of lightning in her games!



Here are some essential mods:

Kotor 1
Lightsaber Choices - When you construct your lightsaber on Dantoine, this mod gives you more options in the choice of your color crystal, what type of saber (standard, short, or double), and lets you create a second one too if you want to dual wield.

90SK's K1 Robes - changes the look of the jedi robes, based on the Bastila robes. A big improvement over the vanilla look.



Kotor 1 & 2
Kotor Tool - A savegame editor that allows you to modify all of your stats, and those of your companions.
Callidus Thorn
Iirc there are some choices you can make that Kreia approves of, and from what I remember the dark side options she berates you for are the more gratuitous ones(I seem to recall she had something to say when one of my Exiles made some guy jump to his death on Nar Shaddaa).

But ultimately, trying to remain grey is a bad move. Without a certain number of light or dark side points you don't get the prestige classes. Visas' appearance is similarly triggered, so it's really not worth trying unless you can find some mods to alter things.

And I don't think I really bothered micro-managing my Jedi. I think I mainly brute-forced my way through the game, because a Sentinel/Watchman with a pair of heavily modified Mandalorian Rippers and an amped up dual-bladed lightsaber can cause colossal levels of carnage. Throw in a few offensive powers, a Jedi Guardian, and I think I used Kreia a lot too, and it's insane.
Destri Melarg
QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 22 2015, 01:16 PM) *

Iirc there are some choices you can make that Kreia approves of, and from what I remember the dark side options she berates you for are the more gratuitous ones(I seem to recall she had something to say when one of my Exiles made some guy jump to his death on Nar Shaddaa).

Yeah I had no problem with Kreia’s constant nitpicking. I just chalked it up to a flaw in her character. laugh.gif After all, she does risk her own life to save yours at the start of the game. And, selfish motivations or not, she does tend to care for you and your plight far more than the ineffectual fools on the Jedi Counsel who are perfectly content to throw you to the wolves while they continue to hide. I know that she ultimately has her own agenda, but even at the end she tells you how much she cares about you.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 22 2015, 12:41 PM) *

And Destri, I did go to that Dark Side! Her name was Jaelyn. It was over between us a long time ago, but I honestly still dream about her to this day. Come to think of it, she is the one who introduced me to the Kotor games, and loaned me my first copies to try them out. smile.gif The dark-side consular was her favorite class, for just the reasons you mentioned. There was always plenty of lightning in her games!



Here are some essential mods:

Kotor 1
Lightsaber Choices - When you construct your lightsaber on Dantoine, this mod gives you more options in the choice of your color crystal, what type of saber (standard, short, or double), and lets you create a second one too if you want to dual wield.

90SK's K1 Robes - changes the look of the jedi robes, based on the Bastila robes. A big improvement over the vanilla look.

Kotor 1 & 2
Kotor Tool - A savegame editor that allows you to modify all of your stats, and those of your companions.

Jaelyn sounds hot! Plus she introduced you to Kotor! hubbahubba.gif

Thanks for the mods list. I'll definitely check out the robes if/when I buy the game. Even though they aren't the kind of Jedi robes I would prefer, they offer more options than vanilla Kotor gives us. I actually like the standard blue, green, yellow lightsaber schemes and what those colors represent (wait, it is yellow for a Sentinel right?).

I also agree that it is a bit tedious micro-manging jedi, but I think that has more to do with the turn-based combat system than anything else. What Star Wars in general (and the Kotor franchise in particular) needs is a game with a combat system that is more real time. Something along the lines of what the Witcher series does would be fantastic. I want to be able to block and parry with my lightsaber before launching an enemy thirty feet into a wall with my force powers. I want to be able to block incoming blaster fire by holding down the block button... and I want the degree to which I am successful to be based on my skill with the blade and my knowledge of the force. I want to be able to manipulate objects of varying sizes with telekinetic force powers. I want the long flowing robes with a hood that I can toggle up or down.

And, most importantly, I want to be able to play as something more than just a human!

(Oh, and before anyone says it, I despise MMO’s in general and SWTOR in particular.)


SubRosa
Jaelyn is hot! biggrin.gif

I forget what class yellow was for. It might be sentinel. I always preferred purple, so that is what I have usually gone for thanks to that mod. I would love a black saber though, like Pre-Viz had in The Clone Wars.

What I would like to see is a little more originality with the Force Powers. Not just in a future game, but in the Star Wars universe as a whole. As I said in a different topic, we never see a Jedi using the Force to calm the savage beasts like Gundarks, or those big monster things in the arena in Attack Of The Clones. Why can't there be an Animal Whisperer Force Power? Or someone who can read the Force energy in another and thereby predict everything they do before they do it? Or siphon that Force energy for themselves? Or control it (and use it to make them chop their own head off with their lightsaber). Or use the Force to make your body harder than diamond, and immune from lightsabers. Or to regenerate any wound. With something like the Force, the options should be as wide open as mutant powers are comics.

I think Jedi and Sith would be a lot more interesting if part of gaining mastery meant moving beyond the stock techniques like deflecting blaster bolts and telekinesis, and developing a unique ability like one of those above. Something really strong that defines how they use the force, and is a reflection of who they are as a person. You would still have the runt Jedi Knights and Sith Assassins, but the Obi-Wans, Yoda's, Mace's, etc... would all be one of the kind.

I don't have any interest in MMOs either. I was so disappointed when The Old Republic came out. I would have vastly preferred a third Kotor game. Or another Jedi Academy game. Or even a new X-Wing game.

And yes, I want to play as a Twi'lek! Or an Iridonian, or a Tortugan! Humans are so boring. I already have to play one IRL. wink.gif
Destri Melarg
You actually do get both Affect Mind and Beast Trick as universal powers (meaning accessible to both light & dark) in Kotor 2. I actually think thay did that part of the game extremely well. Here’s a Link that discusses all the force powers.

I’d like to see a future game move beyond the limiting confines of Jedi vs. Sith. Or, more precisely, i’d like to see Sith who aren’t all ‘twirl the mustache’ evil (or, at the very least, let’s see a bit more subtlety in the evil... like the machinations of Palpatine) and Jedi who aren’t all saccharine do-gooders (give us the option to be a Qui-Gon).

Good and evil in videosgames needs a complete overhaul in general. These games aren’t made for a pre-teen audience anymore, so why do we continue to have such an anachronistic morality system?
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 24 2015, 01:25 AM) *

I forget what class yellow was for. It might be sentinel. I always preferred purple, so that is what I have usually gone for thanks to that mod.


Iirc:

Yellow is for Sentinels
Blue is for Guardians
Green is for Consulars

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 24 2015, 01:25 AM) *

What I would like to see is a little more originality with the Force Powers. Not just in a future game, but in the Star Wars universe as a whole. As I said in a different topic, we never see a Jedi using the Force to calm the savage beasts like Gundarks, or those big monster things in the arena in Attack Of The Clones. Why can't there be an Animal Whisperer Force Power? Or someone who can read the Force energy in another and thereby predict everything they do before they do it? Or siphon that Force energy for themselves? Or control it (and use it to make them chop their own head off with their lightsaber). Or use the Force to make your body harder than diamond, and immune from lightsabers. Or to regenerate any wound. With something like the Force, the options should be as wide open as mutant powers are comics.

I think Jedi and Sith would be a lot more interesting if part of gaining mastery meant moving beyond the stock techniques like deflecting blaster bolts and telekinesis, and developing a unique ability like one of those above. Something really strong that defines how they use the force, and is a reflection of who they are as a person. You would still have the runt Jedi Knights and Sith Assassins, but the Obi-Wans, Yoda's, Mace's, etc... would all be one of the kind.


I have to disagree with the underlined. By the time we get around to people like Obi-Wan Kenobi, even by the time we get around to Revan and the Old Republic, the Force has been used by Jedi and Sith for thousands of years. The teaching methods for the safe use of that power are long established, categorised, and classified. They're all drawing from the same source of power, as a result of similar training, along similar lines. So them all being capable of similar things makes sense. On the other hand mutant powers are a grab bag of randomness, courtesy of the quirks of unguided mutation.

There are a few quirks though. Corran Horn/Kieran Halcyon from some of the books had the ability to absorb energy, even from a lightsaber, and redirect as force energy. We see Darth Vader do the same in Empire Strikes Back when Han shoots at him on Bespin. And, much as I despise the prequels, there is the reference to Darth Plagueis, who basically became almost immortal thanks to the force, and Yoda catching and seemingly absorbing Force Lightning with ease. But that apparently required an immense mastery of the Force, and possibly a vast amount of time to reach that level. Not to mention going way beyond what they were taught.

It would basically turn every Sith or Jedi of importance into walking, semi-invincible gimmicks.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 24 2015, 01:25 AM) *

I don't have any interest in MMOs either. I was so disappointed when The Old Republic came out. I would have vastly preferred a third Kotor game. Or another Jedi Academy game. Or even a new X-Wing game.

And yes, I want to play as a Twi'lek! Or an Iridonian, or a Tortugan! Humans are so boring. I already have to play one IRL. wink.gif


Same here. Anyone of those games would have been awesome.

And with the number of races popping up in the Star Wars universe, we really need the chance to play as them.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 24 2015, 02:09 AM) *

I’d like to see a future game move beyond the limiting confines of Jedi vs. Sith. Or, more precisely, i’d like to see Sith who aren’t all ‘twirl the mustache’ evil (or, at the very least, let’s see a bit more subtlety in the evil... like the machinations of Palpatine) and Jedi who aren’t all saccharine do-gooders (give us the option to be a Qui-Gon).

Good and evil in videosgames needs a complete overhaul in general. These games aren’t made for a pre-teen audience anymore, so why do we continue to have such an anachronistic morality system?


I have to agree with you on this.

In all honesty, I blame the Extended Universe for that. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, the proper Jedi from the original films, weren't the good guys. They were more grey than light or dark. Vader and Palpatine were definitely dark, but they were being opposed by the Rebels, and they were the good guys, not the Jedi. Luke wasn't even a good guy, not really. Once his Jedi training kicked in, he dropped the Rebels and went off to pursue his own goals. Take Return of the Jedi, where his goal was to redeem his father, while the Rebels were trying to bring down the oppressive Empire, and would have succeeded whether Luke was present or not.

But the Sith are the bad guys, and it takes Jedi to stop them. Which, by default, forces Jedi to be the good guys(becuase who wants complicated moral situations, right? rolleyes.gif ). Which is what they ran with for all the books and videogames. And the prequels were made for that pre-teen audience(******* Jar-Jar Binks mad.gif ), so why not make the games for them too? Bleh.
SubRosa
I discovered something interesting in KOTOR 2. The Stun/Disable Droid powers can also be used to blow up mines. That is very helpful, since it gives me a chance to knock them out before the rest of the party runs over them.
Destri Melarg
QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 24 2015, 01:14 AM) *

In all honesty, I blame the Extended Universe for that. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, the proper Jedi from the original films, weren't the good guys. They were more grey than light or dark.

I agree with that to a certain degree. Tatooine Obi-Wan definitely falls into more of the anti-hero mold for the same reasons that you ascribe to Luke. He shows no real desire to rescue Leia or liberate the stolen plans once they arrive on the Death Star. He just goes off to do his own thing. Clone Wars era Obi-Wan is absolutely a good guy.

QUOTE
But the Sith are the bad guys, and it takes Jedi to stop them. Which, by default, forces Jedi to be the good guys(becuase who wants complicated moral situations, right? rolleyes.gif ). Which is what they ran with for all the books and videogames. And the prequels were made for that pre-teen audience(******* Jar-Jar Binks mad.gif ), so why not make the games for them too? Bleh.

The problem is that the Jedi never actually stop them, do they? That gets to the root of my problem with the Jedi Order. It seems to me that their stated purpose of protecting the Republic is always discarded anytime the Republic is actually threatened. The Jedi seem far more interested in vacillating and hiding than doing their stated job. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan retreat to the hind end of the galaxy to avoid getting involved in a war that they have (supposedly) dedicated themselves to fight. They are both content to leave the fate of the galaxy to the rebel alliance and a farm boy from Tatooine.

Even their rules against the stronger emotions bother me. Avoiding the passions that make us human because those passions could lead to the dark side isn't wisdom… it's cowardice. It seems to me that allowing oneself to feel said emotions and then rising above their tendency to corrupt is what would make one a stronger Jedi. What exactly constitutes the Jedi trials, anyway? I feel that it is probably in keeping with what Luke went through in the cave on Dagobah. That trial involved facing his fear, not running from it. I don't understand why that has to end the moment one becomes a full member of the Order.
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 08:39 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 24 2015, 01:14 AM) *

In all honesty, I blame the Extended Universe for that. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, the proper Jedi from the original films, weren't the good guys. They were more grey than light or dark.

I agree with that to a certain degree. Tatooine Obi-Wan definitely falls into more of the anti-hero mold for the same reasons that you ascribe to Luke. He shows no real desire to rescue Leia or liberate the stolen plans once they arrive on the Death Star. He just goes off to do his own thing. Clone Wars era Obi-Wan is absolutely a good guy.


Tatooine Obi-Wan was far more committed than Clone Wars Obi-Wan was. He sacrificed himself on the Death Star not so the Millennium Falcon could get away(which he'd already ensured) but so that he could continue to guide Luke.

Clone Wars Obi-Wan couldn't even finish off the man who brought down the Jedi Order.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 08:39 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 24 2015, 01:14 AM) *

But the Sith are the bad guys, and it takes Jedi to stop them. Which, by default, forces Jedi to be the good guys(becuase who wants complicated moral situations, right? rolleyes.gif ). Which is what they ran with for all the books and videogames. And the prequels were made for that pre-teen audience(******* Jar-Jar Binks mad.gif ), so why not make the games for them too? Bleh.

The problem is that the Jedi never actually stop them, do they? That gets to the root of my problem with the Jedi Order. It seems to me that their stated purpose of protecting the Republic is always discarded anytime the Republic is actually threatened. The Jedi seem far more interested in vacillating and hiding than doing their stated job. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan retreat to the hind end of the galaxy to avoid getting involved in a war that they have (supposedly) dedicated themselves to fight. They are both content to leave the fate of the galaxy to the rebel alliance and a farm boy from Tatooine.

Even their rules against the stronger emotions bother me. Avoiding the passions that make us human because those passions could lead to the dark side isn't wisdom… it's cowardice. It seems to me that allowing oneself to feel said emotions and then rising above their tendency to corrupt is what would make one a stronger Jedi. What exactly constitutes the Jedi trials, anyway? I feel that it is probably in keeping with what Luke went through in the cave on Dagobah. That trial involved facing his fear, not running from it. I don't understand why that has to end the moment one becomes a full member of the Order.


Well, if they got rid of the Sith, who will they use for the enemy in the next game/book/comic/whatever?

I'd consider that a generous view of Yoda and Obi-Wan. They'd been hiding for years, waiting for Luke to come to them so that they could turn him into an unwitting weapon to kill his own father. And Yoda's even open to the possibility of using Leia should Luke fail. And personally, I actually liked that dark aspect of them. It made a nice contrast to Rebel Alliance vs The Empire, a clear good vs evil struggle.

The biggest problem with the Jedi Code is that it's more about avoidance than anything else. It's not that they want to be good, but that they don't want to be bad, because it's dangerous for them. But they're not really invested in anything, not in the Republic, not in each other, not even in their own lives, because that would require attachment and emotion. So you get this order that is supposed to be good, but has no actual reason to be beyond self-interest. Which is what tends to make Jedi crummy heroes.

At least the KotOR games manage to show this. In those we're told that the Jedi Council didn't fight with the Republic in the Mandalorian Wars because their concern was what war would mean for the Jedi. And then we're given heroes who could end up becoming villains instead.

I was under the impression that the test on Dagobah wasn't about confronting his fear, but about simply facing the dark side. He sees Vader, backs away in fear, and activates his lightsaber. Vader only activated his afterwards. Luke gave into fear, possibly anger too, and struck Vader's head off. Then the mask bursts open and we see Luke's face, the lesson being that by giving in to those emotions he destroyed himself. Or at least, that's how it always seemed to me. On the dvd that scene is listed as "Failure at the cave". Presumably that's what the trials came down to, facing the dark side and resisting it.
Destri Melarg
The point is that he faced the dark side in that cave and emerged the better for it, despite the so-called failure. That failure is what fueled him to be able to withstand the later confrontations with Vader, which I don't believe would have been possible without the failure in the cave. Too often we see the Jedi run from those confrontations out of fear for what could happen. That, to me, is the very definition of cowardice.

And Clone Wars Obi-Wan absolutely failed, I agree with you on that. But success is not a measure of what makes one a good guy.
SubRosa
I agree with Destri here on Jedi emotion. The whole Jedi philosophy of fighting and repressing ones emotions has been proven to have disastrous consequences in the real world. When you deny your emotions you give up all control over them, and in the darkest recesses of your mind they grow into a Shadow that is guaranteed to break loose in the form of some extremely unfortunate behavior, usually at the most socially awkward moment possible.

The only way to master your emotions is to first accept them, and understand that they come from you and only you. No one can make you mad, or frightened, or happy. They all come from you, and you have the power to do something about them. With unwanted emotions - like jealousy and hatred - the next step is to take a hard, uncensored look at yourself and face the reasons you feel these things, and then do something about it. It might be to come to understand that the person you are jealous of doesn't really have it all that good after all, or to realize that you are projecting all of your own insecurities onto them, or just to buy a Jaguar so you can get hand-jobs from women you don't even know (a.k.a. the midlife crisis special)...

Most of all you have live with your emotions to learn to well, live with them. The Jedi never do that. Instead they learn to pretend to never to feel anything. They are the Cult of Prozac. It is no wonder that they have all the emotional durability of porcelain that has just been thrown out of a twenty story window. Sometimes it seems like every time a puppy dies a Jedi turns to the dark side. The Sith are no better, as they simply indulge all their most destructive emotions instead. One side has no Pathos, and the other no Ethos.

Instead they ought to be learning to live with their emotions in a healthy way, and in the process gaining true wisdom. Emotions are not a bad thing. Fear keeps people alive, it dissuades us from doing stupid things like dancing on the edge of cliffs, or jumping into lion cages (well, most of us at least). Anger has often led people to fight injustice. Without lust we wouldn't be alive in the first place. And so on. I think the whole Jedi/Sith philosophies are just evidence that George Lucas does not know a whole lot about actually living life.
SubRosa
So am I the only one who thinks that Kylo Ren's outfit is a ripoff of Darth Revan's?
mALX
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 25 2015, 01:33 PM) *

So am I the only one who think that Kylo Ren's outfit is a ripoff of Darth Revan's?



Ooooh, nice! Wish someone would make that for TES games!








Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 05:03 PM) *

The point is that he faced the dark side in that cave and emerged the better for it, despite the so-called failure. That failure is what fueled him to be able to withstand the later confrontations with Vader, which I don't believe would have been possible without the failure in the cave. Too often we see the Jedi run from those confrontations out of fear for what could happen. That, to me, is the very definition of cowardice.


Except he didn't. he failed the test so completely that after the vision he basically gave in to fear, abandoned his training, and ended up in a fight against Vader that he wasn't ready for. Rather than run away from a confrontation for fear of what could happen, Luke ran into a confrontation for fear of what could happen. Not only did he fail the test, but he failed to learn anything from it.

It's only after Luke goes back to Yoda in return of the Jedi that he's really a Jedi. He speaks to Yoda, and then to Obi-Wan , knowing that they lied to him. But he's not raging out or anything.

And bear in mind that later in the Extended Universe timeline Luke Skywalker turned to the dark side. So even after confronting the dark side, and then redeeming his father from it, he still turned to the dark side and ended up serving the Reborn Emperor.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 05:03 PM) *

And Clone Wars Obi-Wan absolutely failed, I agree with you on that. But success is not a measure of what makes one a good guy.


True, but the fact he didn't finish Anakin off shows a distinct lack of conviction. Then again, his hands were tied by the original films, so I suppose you can't solely blame him for that laugh.gif And in all honesty, I don't think that any Jedi involved in the Clone Wars can be considered good, since it meant them turning a blind eye to the slave army the Republic is using.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 25 2015, 06:03 PM) *

I agree with Destri here on Jedi emotion. The whole Jedi philosophy of fighting and repressing ones emotions has been proven to have disastrous consequences in the real world. When you deny your emotions you give up all control over them, and in the darkest recesses of your mind they grow into a Shadow that is guaranteed to break loose in the form of some extremely unfortunate behavior, usually at the most socially awkward moment possible.

The only way to master your emotions is to first accept them, and understand that they come from you and only you. No one can make you mad, or frightened, or happy. They all come from you, and you have the power to do something about them. With unwanted emotions - like jealousy and hatred - the next step is to take a hard, uncensored look at yourself and face the reasons you feel these things, and then do something about it. It might be to come to understand that the person you are jealous of doesn't really have it all that good after all, or to realize that you are projecting all of your own insecurities onto them, or just to buy a Jaguar so you can get hand-jobs from women you don't even know (a.k.a. the midlife crisis special)...

Most of all you have live with your emotions to learn to well, live with them. The Jedi never do that. Instead they learn to pretend to never to feel anything. They are the Cult of Prozac. It is no wonder that they have all the emotional durability of porcelain that has just been thrown out of a twenty story window. Sometimes it seems like every time a puppy dies a Jedi turns to the dark side. The Sith are no better, as they simply indulge all their most destructive emotions instead. One side has no Pathos, and the other no Ethos.

Instead they ought to be learning to live with their emotions in a healthy way, and in the process gaining true wisdom. Emotions are not a bad thing. Fear keeps people alive, it dissuades us from doing stupid things like dancing on the edge of cliffs, or jumping into lion cages (well, most of us at least). Anger has often led people to fight injustice. Without lust we wouldn't be alive in the first place. And so on. I think the whole Jedi/Sith philosophies are just evidence that George Lucas does not know a whole lot about actually living life.


While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it can be directly applied to the Jedi. Bear in mind we don't know the mechanics of how the Jedi and Sith manipulate and direct the Force, the impact their emotional state has on that, or exactly how great the risks involved are. What we're doing is the equivalent of debating magical techniques in Dungeons and Dragons.

But consider how much damage an emotionally unstable person could do with a gun. The Force has far greater destructive potential than that, and it's not something someone can simply put down. Stripping them of their connection to the Force is possible, but appears to require several Jedi Masters to do so, and is irreversible. And these individuals can manipulate the Force long before they would reach emotional maturity.

The Jedi have thousands of years worth of examples of what can happen when a Jedi turns to the dark side, including Sith Lords who've brought the Republic to it's knees, fought the Jedi Order to the brink of destruction, or wiped out entire planets. It's not like they're exaggerating the threat, and using emotions to channel the Force is a Sith doctrine, written into their own Code. Is it really any surprise the Jedi take the opposite stance?

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 25 2015, 06:33 PM) *

So am I the only one who think that Kylo Ren's outfit is a ripoff of Darth Revan's?


I'll be honest, there's been an advert on tv for batteries with that mask on it, and until now I could have sworn it actually was Revan on there instead rollinglaugh.gif
SubRosa
QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 25 2015, 05:05 PM) *

While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it can be directly applied to the Jedi. Bear in mind we don't know the mechanics of how the Jedi and Sith manipulate and direct the Force, the impact their emotional state has on that, or exactly how great the risks involved are. What we're doing is the equivalent of debating magical techniques in Dungeons and Dragons.

But consider how much damage an emotionally unstable person could do with a gun. The Force has far greater destructive potential than that, and it's not something someone can simply put down. Stripping them of their connection to the Force is possible, but appears to require several Jedi Masters to do so, and is irreversible. And these individuals can manipulate the Force long before they would reach emotional maturity.

The Jedi have thousands of years worth of examples of what can happen when a Jedi turns to the dark side, including Sith Lords who've brought the Republic to it's knees, fought the Jedi Order to the brink of destruction, or wiped out entire planets. It's not like they're exaggerating the threat, and using emotions to channel the Force is a Sith doctrine, written into their own Code. Is it really any surprise the Jedi take the opposite stance?

Which is why if they were wise, the Jedi would learn to control their emotions. Especially before they learn to kill people with nothing but a thought. As I said, repressing your emotions is a guarantee that you cannot control them. It insures an unstable mind. The Jedi's very teachings push them to the dark side. They create the threat with their own ignorance of basic psychology.
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 12:03 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 25 2015, 05:05 PM) *

While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it can be directly applied to the Jedi. Bear in mind we don't know the mechanics of how the Jedi and Sith manipulate and direct the Force, the impact their emotional state has on that, or exactly how great the risks involved are. What we're doing is the equivalent of debating magical techniques in Dungeons and Dragons.

But consider how much damage an emotionally unstable person could do with a gun. The Force has far greater destructive potential than that, and it's not something someone can simply put down. Stripping them of their connection to the Force is possible, but appears to require several Jedi Masters to do so, and is irreversible. And these individuals can manipulate the Force long before they would reach emotional maturity.

The Jedi have thousands of years worth of examples of what can happen when a Jedi turns to the dark side, including Sith Lords who've brought the Republic to it's knees, fought the Jedi Order to the brink of destruction, or wiped out entire planets. It's not like they're exaggerating the threat, and using emotions to channel the Force is a Sith doctrine, written into their own Code. Is it really any surprise the Jedi take the opposite stance?

Which is why if they were wise, the Jedi would learn to control their emotions. Especially before they learn to kill people with nothing but a thought. As I said, repressing your emotions is a guarantee that you cannot control them. It insures an unstable mind. The Jedi's very teachings push them to the dark side. They create the threat with their own ignorance of basic psychology.


Two things:

1) That would mean trying to teach emotional control to small children who possess powers they can't/don't understand, may not be able to properly control, and may well fall into bad habits should they develop a degree of control on their own.

2) Considering that the vast majority of Jedi in the Star Wars universe have not been nuts and turning to the dark side, it would appear The Force provides some form of stabilising influence.
SubRosa
It is when we are children that we begin to learn to deal with our emotions. First we throw tantrums. Then if we have good parenting we learn that simply screaming is not the way to get what we want and need. We learn to love and care for others. We learn what is like to lose those we love - when our goldfish dies, when the family dog or cat dies, as we watch grandma and grampa die. This is where we first learn to deal with grief, and to understand that we can live with loss. Childhood is one of the most important parts of a person's life, because this is when ideas and behaviors are first instilled, such as possessing a conscience. Instead of learning how to wield lightsabers, 8-year olds should be learning how to be 8-year olds. How to just live life as decent sentient beings, rather than how to be killing machines.

But powers they cannot control? One thing the movies and games have been very clear about is that without training, force ability is all but wasted. No one even has a clue that they are force-sensitive until an actual force-user tells them. Anakin was the Uber Chosen One, possessing the most raw power of any Force-user ever. Yet without training all that amounted to was he was a good pod racer. Luke was force-sensitive, but without Obi-Wan's guidance he was just a good pilot. The same with Leia, and so on.

OTOH, the entire army of Jedi that went to war with Revan turned to the dark side. As you said yourself, even Luke went to the dark side. People in the KOTOR games don't like Jedi because they cannot see any difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Given that most of the Sith were Jedi it is no surprise. The Sith (not the race, but the 'modern' force-users) even started out as renegade Jedi. The failings of the Jedi Order created them. That is pretty significant.

Remember that the dark side is constantly tempting people. That is not a stabilizing influence. The more one is in touch with the Force, the more danger there is of going over the edge. A person really needs to know themselves to survive that temptation. Locking yourself out from your own feelings is a guarantee that you will not be able to control yourself. I am not making this up. Look up Repression or Facing The Shadow. Even without super-powers thrown in, that is a powderkeg just waiting to go off.
Destri Melarg
This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.

And Luke didn't leave Dagobah because of his failure in the cave. The two events had nothing to do with each other. He left Dagobah after the vision of his friends in trouble. He chose to act (like Revan before him) despite Yoda's counsel that he should simply do nothing... which, it seems, is the Jedi way.
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM) *

It is when we are children that we begin to learn to deal with our emotions. First we throw tantrums. Then if we have good parenting we learn that simply screaming is not the way to get what we want and need. We learn to love and care for others. We learn what is like to lose those we love - when our goldfish dies, when the family dog or cat dies, as we watch grandma and grampa die. This is where we first learn to deal with grief, and to understand that we can live with loss. Childhood is one of the most important parts of a person's life, because this is when ideas and behaviors are first instilled, such as possessing a conscience. Instead of learning how to wield lightsabers, 8-year olds should be learning how to be 8-year olds. How to just live life as decent sentient beings, rather than how to be killing machines.

But powers they cannot control? One thing the movies and games have been very clear about is that without training, force ability is all but wasted. No one even has a clue that they are force-sensitive until an actual force-user tells them. Anakin was the Uber Chosen One, possessing the most raw power of any Force-user ever. Yet without training all that amounted to was he was a good pod racer. Luke was force-sensitive, but without Obi-Wan's guidance he was just a good pilot. The same with Leia, and so on.


At the age of eighteen, Dessel, who later became Darth Bane, used the Force to kill his father. He had received no training, was unaware of his abilities, but had a great deal of anger. A standout case, I'll grant you, but in the books there are plenty of references to Force sensitive individuals gaining a measure of control over their abilities without training. A child throwing a tantrum may well be able to lash out with the Force.

And considering that the prequels are a continuity trainwreck, even with just the original films, I'm inclined to ignore anything from them. Particularly where Anakin Skywalker is concerned, in light of the hang up they had with him.

But, this entire discussion is rather academic. If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM) *

OTOH, the entire army of Jedi that went to war with Revan turned to the dark side. As you said yourself, even Luke went to the dark side. People in the KOTOR games don't like Jedi because they cannot see any difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Given that most of the Sith were Jedi it is no surprise. The Sith (not the race, but the 'modern' force-users) even started out as renegade Jedi. The failings of the Jedi Order created them. That is pretty significant.


Revan was something of a special case. He basically had his mind controlled by the single most powerful Force user in existence, the Sith Emperor, who turned him against the Republic to pave the way for his invasion. As for Revan turning the rest, Kreia explains that in one of the conversations with her.

And why would the people in KotOR see any difference between Jedi and Sith? It was Revan who led the Jedi into the war against the Mandalorians, only to disappear, return as Sith, and wage war on the Republic. When you've got a Jedi hero leading an army of Sith, you think the people are going to differentiate?

And Luke thought he was saving the galaxy somehow by doing so, and I believe it was implied that he believed his father had made the same choice. It's been a while since I read the graphic novels in question.

And it should be pointed out that the conflict between light and dark side Force users has been taking place since the Force was first harnessed, long before the dogmatic Jedi Order was even established. Since we don't know the specifics of how it began, or the original doctrines regarding training of those who were Force sensitive, it is entirely possible that what your advocating was tried and failed, leading to the Jedi and their doctrine.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM) *

Remember that the dark side is constantly tempting people. That is not a stabilizing influence. The more one is in touch with the Force, the more danger there is of going over the edge. A person really needs to know themselves to survive that temptation. Locking yourself out from your own feelings is a guarantee that you will not be able to control yourself. I am not making this up. Look up Repression or Facing The Shadow. Even without super-powers thrown in, that is a powderkeg just waiting to go off.


At no point have I suggested or thought anything along those lines.

However, by your arguments the vast majority of Jedi should fall prey to the dark side. The Jedi Order should have collapsed long before even the time of Revan, just under the sheer number of dark Jedi they were creating. The fact that they didn't implies that something's working in their favour. So either the vast majority of Jedi weren't encountering any triggers to turn them to the dark side, or the fact that they were in a way connected to all life in the galaxy acted as a stabilising influence on their minds.

If your argument is that the Jedi Order shouldn't exist because they'd all go off the deep end due to being emotionally repressed, then the only reason they're still around is because the authors and writers say they are. Which essentially makes this a moot topic.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.


Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in the KotOR games that the Jedi Council thought there was something else behind the war with the Mandalorians? It's been a while since I played them, so I'm not quite sure. It probably would have been KotOR2.

As for the Exile, she(it's actually canon that the exile was female) had a very particular affliction. She was a wound in the force, the same kind of phenomenon that we see in Darth's Nihlus and Sion. What's said about her by the Jedi Masters in KotOR2 makes it very clear that there was something very wrong with her, something that couldn't be cured, which was as much the reason for her being exiled as her actions. By the time she reached the Council she couldn't even feel the Force anymore, because of it.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

And Luke didn't leave Dagobah because of his failure in the cave. The two events had nothing to do with each other. He left Dagobah after the vision of his friends in trouble. He chose to act (like Revan before him) despite Yoda's counsel that he should simply do nothing... which, it seems, is the Jedi way.


Luke reacted the same way to the test and to the vision. He freaked out, and let his fear push him into reckless action. He only survived the fight with Vader because Vader wanted to turn him to the dark side rather than kill him. Luke simply wasn't ready for the fight, which is why Yoda wanted him to finish his training. If Vader had wanted Luke dead, Luke wouldn't have stood a chance at that point.
SubRosa
QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 03:20 AM) *

If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.

I do not think it is because they were screwing people up for kicks. I think it is because they were fools. More specifically, because George Lucas doesn't know a whole lot about some of the most basic realities of human psychology. He wrote what he did in ignorance. Teaching people to repress their emotions does not make them stable, it makes them timebombs.

The vast majority of Jedi should fall to the dark side. They would if they really existed and followed the Jedi code. Because that is how the human mind works (and apparently every alien mind, since I do not believe I have ever seen an alien race in the Star Wars universe display patterns of thought or feeling different from human ones). That is what I am getting at. Lucas' writing that created the Jedi code is flawed.


QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.

In Kotor 1 you learn that the Jedi Council held back from getting involved in the Mandalorian War because they felt some hidden, darker force orchestrating events. That turned out to be a Sith (the race) Empire hiding beyond Republic space. They had put the Mandalorians up to attacking the Republic. The Council wanted to wait to see what it was before committing any Jedi to the conflict. But Revan went anyway and won, and then the Sith somehow captured him and turned him, and apparently he turned the rest of his Jedi, except the Exile.

So the Council was right in that something else was out there. But their failure to act is just as damning IMHO. If not for Revan the Mandalorians would have enslaved the galaxy, the Jedi would have been hunted down one by one and killed, and the Sith would have won. OTOH, if the Council had taken part in the war, then I believe Revan would not have fallen. I base this assumption simply on the fact that the Sith Empire was hidden. If they were hiding, then they were not able to face the Republic and the Jedi Council openly. Instead they had to use proxies like the Mandalorians. So if the Council had been present, they would have been too strong for the Sith to have been able to kidnap them and turn them, as they did Revan. That is an assumption, but it seems to me that if the Sith had been strong enough to attack openly, they would have, and not hidden.

I think there is a novel or comic series that detailed it all, but I never read them, I am just going by what I read in Wookiepedia. Kotor 1 never gives any specifics about the hidden Sith Empire, or that it was even Sith. All the game ever says is a hidden enemy. So my guess is that someone simply took the events of the game, and decided to write some EU material about it after the fact which fleshed things out.

I also found myself intensely disliking the Jedi Council by the end of Kotor 1. Kotor 2 just made it worse. I suspect that the Council's unwillingness to act was simply a writing ploy used by Bioware and inherited by Obisidian as a way to make sure the player character is the only one who can save the galaxy. Just like how in Skyrim no npc can do anything, not even carry a sword from their smithy to give to their father. The player character has to do everything, because they are special. If the Council had gotten off their robed rears, there would be nothing for the player to do!

Oh, and it eventually became canon that the Jedi Exile was female, years after the game. I think it is the only case where a female protagonist is canon in a Star Wars game.
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:37 PM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 03:20 AM) *

If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.

I do not think it is because they were screwing people up for kicks. I think it is because they were fools. More specifically, because George Lucas doesn't know a whole lot about some of the most basic realities of human psychology. He wrote what he did in ignorance. Teaching people to repress their emotions does not make them stable, it makes them timebombs.

The vast majority of Jedi should fall to the dark side. They would if they really existed and followed the Jedi code. Because that is how the human mind works (and apparently every alien mind, since I do not believe I have ever seen an alien race in the Star Wars universe display patterns of thought or feeling different from human ones). That is what I am getting at. Lucas' writing that created the Jedi code is flawed.


Well, far be it from me to defend Lucas rollinglaugh.gif

There are some alien races that think and behave differently to humans, but they don't tend to feature in central roles for obvious reasons.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:37 PM) *

So the Council was right in that something else was out there. But their failure to act is just as damning IMHO. If not for Revan the Mandalorians would have enslaved the galaxy, the Jedi would have been hunted down one by one and killed, and the Sith would have won. OTOH, if the Council had taken part in the war, then I believe Revan would not have fallen. I base this assumption simply on the fact that the Sith Empire was hidden. If they were hiding, then they were not able to face the Republic and the Jedi Council openly. Instead they had to use proxies like the Mandalorians. So if the Council had been present, they would have been too strong for the Sith to have been able to kidnap them and turn them, as they did Revan. That is an assumption, but it seems to me that if the Sith had been strong enough to attack openly, they would have, and not hidden.

I think there is a novel or comic series that detailed it all, but I never read them, I am just going by what I read in Wookiepedia. Kotor 1 never gives any specifics about the hidden Sith Empire, or that it was even Sith. All the game ever says is a hidden enemy. So my guess is that someone simply took the events of the game, and decided to write some EU material about it after the fact which fleshed things out.


To be precise, the opened ended hints dropped in KotOR&2 regarding Revan and his actions were turned into a tie in for The Old Republic. I believe Revan actually appears in the game, though I can't say for certain.

According to the book Revan (which takes place before and after KotOR2, I've read it once or twice)

At the end of the Mandalorian War, Mandalore the Ultimate, as he lay dying, revealed to Revan that the Sith had promised him victory. Revan and Malak went looking for answers, and found more than they expected to find. They found that Mandalore had told the truth, that the Sith were still out there(This would be after the Great Hyperspace War, 1,000 years before). They assumed that the Mandalorians had been manipulated into attacking the Republic either to prepare the way for their invasion, or to simply test its strength. Rather than report their findings to the Council they went in search of the Sith Empire, and found them.

Whether the Council's presence would have made any difference is debatable. The Sith Emperor is supposedly a thousand years old, killed/absorbed an entire planet with his powers, and so might have been able to dominate the entire Council.

But it should be noted that Revan, in some small way, did manage to fight the compulsion placed on him, unlike Malak. Hints are dropped, in KotOR2 I believe(I think the Handmaiden mentions it, maybe Kreia too), that Revan's campaign against the Republic was waged in such a way as to preserve certain levels of infrastructure. It's implied he might actually have been intending to conquer the galaxy to keep something else from doing so, though that's speculation. But, as with just about every Jedi hero in the games, Revan is made out to be something special.
SubRosa
I discovered something interesting in Kotor 2. Visas always appears in the same outfit no matter what you give her to wear. She does not even get the option to choose any of the armor feats during level up. But if you use the Kotor Editor to give them to her, she can wear armor normally, and it replaces her standard outfit. Except for the hood, which she always keeps.

I found a mod that allows you to use force powers with any armor. So now I have Visas in a suit of Light Echani Armor, the same as my character Brighid.

I tried the same with Kreia, but with her it does not work. She still looks exactly the same, even with Heavy Mandalorian Armor.

I am also enjoying Kotor 2 less than Kotor 1. There seems to be a lot more cinematics, usually piled one on top of the next so it takes forever get through and actually play the damn game. I am always crossing my fingers that the game does not crash during one, and force me to go through it all over again.

But worse is the combat mechanics. The game often ignores the commands I put in for my team to do, and just does whatever it feels like. Which usually means charging forward and attacking with the base melee attack. It doesn't matter if I set them to Ranged or Stationary. Usually it occurs when I tell them to throw a grenade or use a force power buff. Instead they charge in. I don't remember that ever happening in Kotor 1.

I am also disappointed with the outfits. The Jedi Robes all look like shapeless bags to me, especially when viewed from behind (which face it, is most of the game). In Kotor 1 I got over it with a mod that adds some really cool robes based off Bastila's. But I haven't found any clothing mods for Kotor 2 that look good. Hence my using Echani armor and that mod that makes Force powers work with everything.
Callidus Thorn
As I recall there are a couple of armours that allow the use of force powers, but them popping up is solely down to the rng. I always used to hunt these down for my characters, just because I like the look of them.

I do recall getting a recurring glitch pop up on the xbox version of the game where commands wouldn't be properly acknowledged. I can't quite remember, but I think it had something to do with the timing of the command and what the character was doing.

I'm not sure why they'd be ignoring their weapons though, never seen that before. And considering I used to play these games on the 360 with its terrible backwards compatability that meant even more bugs, that's really saying something.
SubRosa
They do use whatever weapon they have equipped. They just make the normal attack with it, rather than say flurry or critical strike. Of course this is when I want them to use a grenade...
Callidus Thorn
Ah, gotcha.

I take it you're directly ordering the attack, rather than queuing it? I seem to recall that being more effective at getting the characters to do what I wanted them to.

I can't be certain of the exact circumstances(and this was on the xbox version), but I believe that ordering an attack, rather than queuing it, during the wrong part of an animation resulted in it being overwritten by a repeat of the attack in progress at the time. I recall it being a real pain when trying to heal, for instance. I don't know if that's what happening in your game, but it's the only thing along those lines that I can remember.

It's been far too long since I've played these games sad.gif
SubRosa
I just tried it again, and at the beginning of a fight I filled up Visas' action queue with force lightning, and my PC Brighid's queue with grenades. Both of them charged forward and attacked in melee instead. Then after their first attack, started the lightning and tossing grenades. The latter of course being at point blank range thanks to Brighid running up to the target first. *sigh*
Callidus Thorn
Right, dealing with the initial attack seems to have two options. From what I've found online pressing f should cancel all combat actions, so that might stop the initial attack. The alternative would be to go into the settings and set the game to pause when sighting an enemy, letting you queue combat actions without the auto-attack getting in the way.
SubRosa
I do have the auto-pause set when sighting an enemy, and the queues are empty when I add in grenade throwing or force power usage.

Interesting thing, it does not happen when I do not have any companions. I restarted the game, and it has not happened once. I have been alone all this time.
Callidus Thorn
Hmm, that is weird. I don't recall coming across a bug like that.

Then again it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

biggrin.gif


Sorry.
SubRosa
In the past I have always created characters with high Dexterity and never bothered putting any points into Strength. First because you needed a high Dex bonus to make up for the lack of real armor you could wear and still use Force powers. Second because in Kotor 1 you automatically used either your Dex or Strength bonus to hit with a lightsaber, whichever is higher. In Kotor 2 there is a Feat you can take for that. Finally your Dex bonus is what you use to hit with ranged weapons like blasters. So Strength always felt superfluous to me.

But thanks to the mod that allows you to use force powers with any armor I have been rethinking that. I restarted Kotor 2 with a Jedi Guardian who is all Strength and no Dexterity. She'll be sticking to vibroblades in the early game, and dual lightsabers later. The Force Jump should make closing to melee range easy. For armor I can now use anything. Given that there are some out there with Defense bonuses of +10 and higher, defense should be no problem.

I also modded the classes a little to give Jedi Guardians and Consulars more skill points to spend, as a well as give Guardians a little more Force points, and Consulars a little more health. That should hopefully help with my biggest dislike of the Guardian class - low skill points.

I already created my Guardian Brigantia to give it a go. Then I used the Kotor Savegame Editor to remove some of the combat feats I won't be using, like Flurry and Sniper Shot, and instead took a bunch of Skill Focus feats to turn Security, Computer Use, and Repair into class skills (those Feats are one of the things I love about Kotor 2). I'll start playing her today, and see how it works. I am kind of excited, because it is something I have never done before in a Kotor game.
Destri Melarg
Sorry if this debate has run its course, but...

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 12:20 AM) *

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.


Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in the KotOR games that the Jedi Council thought there was something else behind the war with the Mandalorians? It's been a while since I played them, so I'm not quite sure. It probably would have been KotOR2.

As for the Exile, she(it's actually canon that the exile was female) had a very particular affliction. She was a wound in the force, the same kind of phenomenon that we see in Darth's Nihlus and Sion. What's said about her by the Jedi Masters in KotOR2 makes it very clear that there was something very wrong with her, something that couldn't be cured, which was as much the reason for her being exiled as her actions. By the time she reached the Council she couldn't even feel the Force anymore, because of it.

As I recall they did feel that there was something behind the Mandalorian threat and they used that feeling as the reason they wouldn't commit to war. I'm curious, do you honestly believe that instinct (or force vision, intuition, etc) minus proof somehow absolves them for the billions that died under their so-called protection?

Thank you both for the clarification. I honestly didn’t know that the Exile was considered female. happy.gif

On point, I was under the impression that her connection to the force was severed on Malachor V, and that the wound you speak of was created there both by her actions, and by the things that she witnessed. Like you I am going strictly from memory, so let me know if I’m wrong. The Jedi Masters discomfort with her started early in her training, as I remember it. It had something to do with her ability to form connections through the force (which sounds a lot like petty jealousy when you really stop to think about it… especially from 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).

All that aside, as of the time of KOTOR 2 there are only two known beings in the galaxy designated as so-called ‘wounds in the force’, The Exile and Darth Nihlus. Knowing what we do of the nature of balance within the force, isn’t it an obvious supposition that the Exile represents light to Nihlus’ darkness? Yet, without even considering that possibility the Jedi Masters take it upon themselves to attempt to permanently sever her connection to the force (which, we are told, is a fate worse than death to a force sensitive) because she possesses a power they cannot quantify or control. Earlier some of these same ‘Masters’ chose to destroy Revan’s mind and replace it with another because he has gone beyond their ability to manipulate and control.

Of course the above is an interpretation on my part, but it is an interpretation that is informed by the events of the game.

QUOTE
Luke reacted the same way to the test and to the vision. He freaked out, and let his fear push him into reckless action. He only survived the fight with Vader because Vader wanted to turn him to the dark side rather than kill him. Luke simply wasn't ready for the fight, which is why Yoda wanted him to finish his training. If Vader had wanted Luke dead, Luke wouldn't have stood a chance at that point.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I’m not arguing that Luke was in any way ready to face Vader, He clearly wasn’t. I’m saying that choosing to act and choosing to face Vader (rather than the alternative) did more for his training as a Jedi that ten years of lifting X-Wings on Dagobah would have. You said yourself (and the events of the film tells us) that he was ready to be a full Jedi by the time he returned to Dagobah... without any further training from Yoda.

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 08:41 AM) *

But it should be noted that Revan, in some small way, did manage to fight the compulsion placed on him, unlike Malak. Hints are dropped, in KotOR2 I believe(I think the Handmaiden mentions it, maybe Kreia too), that Revan's campaign against the Republic was waged in such a way as to preserve certain levels of infrastructure. It's implied he might actually have been intending to conquer the galaxy to keep something else from doing so, though that's speculation. But, as with just about every Jedi hero in the games, Revan is made out to be something special.

I remember that exact phrase too, so I don't think you're speculating. If so that goes a long way to support what 'Rosa is saying about the success Revan could have had resisting the lure of the dark side if he could have turned to the Council (though, of course, not to 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).

Oh and a very happy belated birthday to you, Callidus.
mirocu
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 06:03 PM) *

The point is that he faced the dark side in that cave and emerged the better for it, despite the so-called failure. That failure is what fueled him to be able to withstand the later confrontations with Vader, which I don't believe would have been possible without the failure in the cave. Too often we see the Jedi run from those confrontations out of fear for what could happen. That, to me, is the very definition of cowardice.

And Clone Wars Obi-Wan absolutely failed, I agree with you on that. But success is not a measure of what makes one a good guy.

We grow from failure, not from success wink.gif


But what do I know? I´m just a rebel scum... tongue.gif
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

Sorry if this debate has run its course, but...


Heh, I could talk Star Wars all day laugh.gif

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

As I recall they did feel that there was something behind the Mandalorian threat and they used that feeling as the reason they wouldn't commit to war. I'm curious, do you honestly believe that instinct (or force vision, intuition, etc) minus proof somehow absolves them for the billions that died under their so-called protection?


But they had proof that something wasn't right. the Mandalorians weren't waging a war of conquest, but actively seeking to draw the Republic into battle. And went to some lengths to do so. And why? To fight the inferior warriors of the Republic? No, they wanted to fight the Jedi. But to what end? To see who were the better warriors? To test themselves? Or for some darker, unknown purpose? I believe both Mandalore and Kreia both say that it wasn't the Republic that was important, but the Jedi, so the Council was right to hold back to try and understand why the Mandalorians wanted to fight the Jedi.

Charging into a conflict without understanding it is a sure way to get in over your head. Which is exactly what happened to Revan.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

On point, I was under the impression that her connection to the force was severed on Malachor V, and that the wound you speak of was created there both by her actions, and by the things that she witnessed. Like you I am going strictly from memory, so let me know if I’m wrong. The Jedi Masters discomfort with her started early in her training, as I remember it. It had something to do with her ability to form connections through the force (which sounds a lot like petty jealousy when you really stop to think about it… especially from 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).

All that aside, as of the time of KOTOR 2 there are only two known beings in the galaxy designated as so-called ‘wounds in the force’, The Exile and Darth Nihlus. Knowing what we do of the nature of balance within the force, isn’t it an obvious supposition that the Exile represents light to Nihlus’ darkness? Yet, without even considering that possibility the Jedi Masters take it upon themselves to attempt to permanently sever her connection to the force (which, we are told, is a fate worse than death to a force sensitive) because she possesses a power they cannot quantify or control. Earlier some of these same ‘Masters’ chose to destroy Revan’s mind and replace it with another because he has gone beyond their ability to manipulate and control.

Of course the above is an interpretation on my part, but it is an interpretation that is informed by the events of the game.


Yes, it was at Malachor V that the Exile was wounded(I guess that's the best term to use). The Jedi Masters might have been uncertain about training her, but in all honesty, I think that that's as much to make The Exile into the same sort of Nexus that Revan was. Kreia spoke of the bonds of loyalty, and implies that Revan used them to turn those who followed him, and the Exile was given something similar but more innate.

Iirc the Sith Assassins in KotOR2 were given training based off of Force wounds, letting them draw strength from their enemies. This likely played a sizable role in their success. The balance in the Force argument, to my mind, tends to be rather weak. They've got a Sith Lord running around with the capability to destroy entire planets, and I believe it's uncertain how much the Jedi knew about Nihlus at the time. But, as dangerous as Nihlus was, The Exile probably had even greater potential because of her forging connections that so unnerved the Masters. If we assume that they knew even a little about how Revan was turning Jedi during the Jedi Civil War(his process involved Wounds in the Force) then The Exile might have been able to turn anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Found something on Wookiepedia on it: Link

And it should be noted that The Exile had lived without the Force since Malachor V, so I don't see that it could be considered a fate worse than death to her. I mean, we literally see them regain their connection to the Force in KotOR2.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

I remember that exact phrase too, so I don't think you're speculating. If so that goes a long way to support what 'Rosa is saying about the success Revan could have had resisting the lure of the dark side if he could have turned to the Council (though, of course, not to 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).


The problem with that line of thinking is that it wasn't a question of resisting the lure of the dark side. What the Sith Emperor did to Revan was similar to what the Jedi did to him after they captured him. It wasn't a fall to the dark side, it was having part of his mind effectively remade, a kind of Force-powered brainwashing, to turn him into a Sith. Compared to Malak, who destroyed Taris and wrecked Dantooine, he was fighting the compulsion placed upon him. But he was no more free of the dark side than Malak was, no less willing to wage war on the Republic than Malak was.

And whether or not he could have fought the compulsion if he met the Sith Emperor again is utterly unknown.

The only way the Jedi Civil War could have been avoided is if Revan had followed the Council. Because that's the only way he wouldn't have ended up finding the hidden Sith Empire.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

Oh and a very happy belated birthday to you, Callidus.


Thank you. biggrin.gif
SubRosa
I think I may have found a way to work around the bug of my characters ignoring their orders and blindly charging in and attacking the start of every fight. It seems that if I unpause the game for about a second, then pause again, I can issue orders that they will actually follow, such as throw grenades or use force powers.

I also finally settled into my Jedi Guardian Brigantia, and plan to finish the entire game with her. She just got her lightsaber, and wow, I have never had a Kotor character who could rack ass like her. She is throwing out 100 points of damage and change every round.

Darth Gillette

Visas - proof the Dark Side has lip gloss!

Our heroine

A hammerhead ship

Brigantia and her boys

Bao-Dur doing acrobatics

This time out I am finding I am liking Bao-Dur best of all the companions. In my previous plays I never really grasped that he is meant to be fight unarmed, and tried giving him weapons and was just disappointed. But this time out I am letting him Kung Fu his way through the game, and he is awesome! Bao-Dur's Charged Armor really helps as well, since he cannot wear pretty much every suit of armor in the game. Most of all though, I am really warming to his personality and backstory. I can feel Brigantia really drawn to him due to their shared experience of the Mandalorian War. Something neither of them wants to talk about, but at least can see that the other understands all too well. I can feel a powerful - even if unspoken - friendship there.
Acadian
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Dec 2 2015, 05:42 PM) *
Eeep! It's Serana with a light saber! biggrin.gif

So nice to see you enjoying another game, and that you've been able to create a character for this one that suits you. Good luck to Brigantia! smile.gif

SubRosa
Gog.com has the Kotor games - and a slew of other Star Wars games - massively on sale. The Kotors are $2.29 each. So if you don't own them, go out and get them now!
Callidus Thorn
Thanks for that Subrosa. Looks like the prices are only massively reduced in the bundle though. As part of the bundle they're £1.59 each, but not separately. They were still 60% off though, so I got them for £2.69 each biggrin.gif

I know I said I was planning to get them after my birthday, but I never expected them to be on sale laugh.gif

I can't download them quite yet, on account of the damage 5.4 gig would do to my datacap, but I've bought them. I'll probably lug my laptop somewhere to download them tomorrow.

Edit: And now I've downloaded them biggrin.gif
Destri Melarg
QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Dec 1 2015, 02:18 AM) *

But they had proof that something wasn't right. the Mandalorians weren't waging a war of conquest, but actively seeking to draw the Republic into battle. And went to some lengths to do so. And why? To fight the inferior warriors of the Republic? No, they wanted to fight the Jedi. But to what end? To see who were the better warriors? To test themselves? Or for some darker, unknown purpose? I believe both Mandalore and Kreia both say that it wasn't the Republic that was important, but the Jedi, so the Council was right to hold back to try and understand why the Mandalorians wanted to fight the Jedi.

Charging into a conflict without understanding it is a sure way to get in over your head. Which is exactly what happened to Revan.

Suspicion doesn't equal proof. Five question marks in your own paragraph shows that there was no definitive answer. Kreia and Mandalore both consider the Jedi more important than the Republic, but that doesn't absolve the Jedi from their responsibility to the Republic. This idea that contemplating the motive of the aggressor is of the utmost importance falls flat to those who are dying while you contemplate. If someone is standing in front of you punching you in the face do you try to figure out why he is punching you, or do you put your dukes up?

And as for Revan, he didn't get in over his head by 'charging into a conflict.' His decision to act won the war and saved the Republic. However you are right about his decision to charge blindly into the unknown after the conflict had been won.

QUOTE
Iirc the Sith Assassins in KotOR2 were given training based off of Force wounds, letting them draw strength from their enemies. This likely played a sizable role in their success. The balance in the Force argument, to my mind, tends to be rather weak. They've got a Sith Lord running around with the capability to destroy entire planets, and I believe it's uncertain how much the Jedi knew about Nihlus at the time. But, as dangerous as Nihlus was, The Exile probably had even greater potential because of her forging connections that so unnerved the Masters. If we assume that they knew even a little about how Revan was turning Jedi during the Jedi Civil War(his process involved Wounds in the Force) then The Exile might have been able to turn anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Thanks for the reminder about the Sith Assassins. It's been so long since I played that I completely forgot about them.embarrased.gif

Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Jedi know enough of the nature of force bonds and wounds in the force that they are able to justify their decisions regarding their treatment of the Exile. I still believe that punishing a person based on what they may be capable of doing or the potential that they probably have is contrary to the spirit of the Jedi Code. The Jedi are supposed to represent the light side of the force. Discrimination, suspicion, vindictiveness, & censure are all so-called 'dark side' actions and they underscore the hypocrisy which festers within the heart of the Jedi Order.

QUOTE
And it should be noted that The Exile had lived without the Force since Malachor V, so I don't see that it could be considered a fate worse than death to her. I mean, we literally see them regain their connection to the Force in KotOR2.

Yeah, even as I was writing it I knew you'd pick that argument apart! laugh.gif

QUOTE
The only way the Jedi Civil War could have been avoided is if Revan had followed the Council. Because that's the only way he wouldn't have ended up finding the hidden Sith Empire.

Except for the fact that the galaxy would be speaking Mandalorian and, if Kriea and Mandalore are to correct, the Sith Empire would rule them all and would therefore be unavoidable. No, the only way to prevent the events which culminated in the Jedi Civil War would have been for the Jedi to, idk, try to prevent the events that led to the Jedi Civil War.

Remember:
QUOTE
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke


QUOTE(SubRosa @ Dec 2 2015, 05:54 PM) *

This time out I am finding I am liking Bao-Dur best of all the companions. In my previous plays I never really grasped that he is meant to be fight unarmed, and tried giving him weapons and was just disappointed. But this time out I am letting him Kung Fu his way through the game, and he is awesome! Bao-Dur's Charged Armor really helps as well, since he cannot wear pretty much every suit of armor in the game. Most of all though, I am really warming to his personality and backstory. I can feel Brigantia really drawn to him due to their shared experience of the Mandalorian War. Something neither of them wants to talk about, but at least can see that the other understands all to well. I can feel a powerful - even if unspoken - friendship there.

I liked Bao-Dur too. His shared backstory with the exile made their interactions feel more complex than any other character save Kreia. I actually never used him in a hand-to-hand role, that sounds awesome!

And I don't know why (maybe it's the jawline), but Brigantia looks like a steam punk character to me. salute.gif
Callidus Thorn
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 4 2015, 06:49 PM) *

Suspicion doesn't equal proof. Five question marks in your own paragraph shows that there was no definitive answer. Kreia and Mandalore both consider the Jedi more important than the Republic, but that doesn't absolve the Jedi from their responsibility to the Republic. This idea that contemplating the motive of the aggressor is of the utmost importance falls flat to those who are dying while you contemplate. If someone is standing in front of you punching you in the face do you try to figure out why he is punching you, or do you put your dukes up?

And as for Revan, he didn't get in over his head by 'charging into a conflict.' His decision to act won the war and saved the Republic. However you are right about his decision to charge blindly into the unknown after the conflict had been won.


There was no definitive answer to why they were doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that the Mandalorians were trying to draw the Jedi into a direct confrontation. And if you're acting as an enemy dictates in a war, then you're already losing it. If something behind the war wanted the Jedi weakened, or corrupted by war(even Revan was concerned about this), then ignoring that threat could lead to even greater loss of life.

And the underlined doesn't apply. The Republic was being attacked, but to goad the Jedi. If someone's trying to goad you into fighting them, you'd be an idiot not to try to figure out why, because it's a safe bet it'd be a bad move to fall for it.

As for Revan winning the war and saving the Republic, you don't think the fact that he then returned to wage war on it, and very nearly succeeded, undermines that claim? You don't think that, ultimately, that makes what he did the wrong decision?

It's already been established in this thread that there's a difference between a Jedi and an emotionally healthy person. There's also a difference between a good Jedi and a good person. Acting as he did may have made Revan a good person, but it made him a bad Jedi, to the cost of the Republic.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 4 2015, 06:49 PM) *

QUOTE
Iirc the Sith Assassins in KotOR2 were given training based off of Force wounds, letting them draw strength from their enemies. This likely played a sizable role in their success. The balance in the Force argument, to my mind, tends to be rather weak. They've got a Sith Lord running around with the capability to destroy entire planets, and I believe it's uncertain how much the Jedi knew about Nihlus at the time. But, as dangerous as Nihlus was, The Exile probably had even greater potential because of her forging connections that so unnerved the Masters. If we assume that they knew even a little about how Revan was turning Jedi during the Jedi Civil War(his process involved Wounds in the Force) then The Exile might have been able to turn anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Thanks for the reminder about the Sith Assassins. It's been so long since I played that I completely forgot about them.embarrased.gif

Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Jedi know enough of the nature of force bonds and wounds in the force that they are able to justify their decisions regarding their treatment of the Exile. I still believe that punishing a person based on what they may be capable of doing or the potential that they probably have is contrary to the spirit of the Jedi Code. The Jedi are supposed to represent the light side of the force. Discrimination, suspicion, vindictiveness, & censure are all so-called 'dark side' actions and they underscore the hypocrisy which festers within the heart of the Jedi Order.


To be honest, I had only a vague recollection of the connection, and had to resort to Wookiepedia for the details.

Do you really believe her exile was unmerited? She defied the Council in going to war with Revan, destroyed an entire planet, and came back to them, not a Jedi, but a walking Wound in the Force that could no longer feel the Force. According to the book Revan both she and Revan were considered war criminals because of Malachor V by the Jedi, though what the rest of the Republic thought isn't mentioned. What place did she have in the Order, having turned her back on it, and in that condition? Was she made an example of? Perhaps. IN Revan Atris says she was, but as we know from KotOR2, she wasn't exactly the best person to ask. If it was mentioned in game or not, I can't remember.

Regarding the attempt to strip her of the Force, they knew that this was no great ordeal for her, it was something she had already endured with no great hardship. Even Kreia remarks on how exceptional that is. As for why? She was possessed of two powers that the Council could not begin to control, as she would ignore them is she wished to. She had already demonstrated a willingness to use unthinkable force, and was actively growing stronger, making her different from any other Wound in the Force. It's doubtful the shattered remnants of the Jedi Order could have stopped her, should that Wound in the Force corrupt her, so how else could they protect those around her? They could not trust her after what she had done, and that was something she had brought upon herself.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 4 2015, 06:49 PM) *

Except for the fact that the galaxy would be speaking Mandalorian and, if Kriea and Mandalore are to correct, the Sith Empire would rule them all and would therefore be unavoidable. No, the only way to prevent the events which culminated in the Jedi Civil War would have been for the Jedi to, idk, try to prevent the events that led to the Jedi Civil War.


Firstly, at no point is it made clear what the Jedi Council was doing during before Revan acted. So there's no basis to assume they were not, and would not, act against the Mandalorians. We can talk to them about the Mandalorian Wars as the Exile, but they've no obligation to answer. So the "galaxy would be speaking Mandalorian" part is completely unsupported.

The Jedi were trying to prevent something of that nature, firstly by trying to understand the reasons behind the war, and secondly by trying to understand the effects going to war would have on the Jedi. Both of these were undermined by Revan going to war. You've confused not acting before they're ready with not acting at all, because after Revan joined the war they would not follow him. This is no basis for an assumption of what they would have done had Revan not done so.

And what do you mean by "the hypocrisy which festers within the heart of the Jedi Order."? Because what comes before it makes it seem like you believe the Jedi should offer complete and unconditional forgiveness in all cases.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 4 2015, 06:49 PM) *

Remember:
QUOTE

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke


Remember:

Revan acting on that principle led to him becoming a Sith Lord, and waging a second, greater war on the Republic. And it was only thanks to the Jedi who followed the Jedi Council and did not go to war, that Revan didn't destroy the Republic, and build his own Sith empire.

Acting irresponsibly is worse than not acting at all, as Revan's fall so aptly demonstrates.
Callidus Thorn
Sorry to double post, but since this is about the game itself rather than everything around it, it didn't really seem right to tack it on the end.

So, installed KotOR, and it runs without any apparent problems. I've decided not to go widescreen with it, partly because my laptop's pretty damn mediocre.

So I rolled up a Scout, named Saron Star, because it came up on the random name and I rather liked the sound of it. He's gone straight for two weapon fighting, but ditched blasters early on in favour of melee weapons, and he's now running around Taris with an Echani Ritual Brand. Makes me wish I'd reversed his strength and dexterity(12&14 respectively), but, no matter.

Haven't quite gotten back into it properly, but thus far the nostalgia is strong with this one laugh.gif
Destri Melarg
QUOTE
There was no definitive answer to why they were doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that the Mandalorians were trying to draw the Jedi into a direct confrontation. And if you're acting as an enemy dictates in a war, then you're already losing it. If something behind the war wanted the Jedi weakened, or corrupted by war(even Revan was concerned about this), then ignoring that threat could lead to even greater loss of life.

And the underlined doesn't apply. The Republic was being attacked, but to goad the Jedi. If someone's trying to goad you into fighting them, you'd be an idiot not to try to figure out why, because it's a safe bet it'd be a bad move to fall for it.

I don't disagree with the fact that the Mandalorians were trying to goad the Jedi. Somebody along the way says as much in one of the games I'm sure. What bothers me is that the Jedi had no idea why they were being goaded at the outset of the war. To their minds the reason might have been as simple as the Mandalorian need to test themselves in battle as you've already brought up. Then they allowed fear (another dark side emotion) to render them impotent when faced with the loss of billions that they were sworn to protect.

'If something behind the war…', and 'could lead to an even greater loss of life' presupposes something they have no knowledge of. It is speculation used to mask cowardice on the part of the Jedi.

QUOTE
As for Revan winning the war and saving the Republic, you don't think the fact that he then returned to wage war on it, and very nearly succeeded, undermines that claim? You don't think that, ultimately, that makes what he did the wrong decision?

No I don't, and I'll explain why:

You're taking for granted that Revan's return was tied to his victory. I see them as two separate events. Revan's decision to follow the remnants of the Mandalorian fleet into unknown space had no bearing on his decision to join the war in the first place… and vice versa. Was Revan's decision to chase the Mandalorians the right one? Of course not for all the reasons you have so ably stated. Was his decision to join the war in the first place the right one? Absolutely because, as the game states, he won the war and saved the Republic.

I wonder: If Revan had not chased the Mandalorians after Malachor V, if he had instead returned to the Jedi Council would they have had the stones to exile him for disobeying them? I seriously doubt it. Not with the whole of the Republic watching. So if I can say that, then I have to consider the two as separate events.

QUOTE
Do you really believe her exile was unmerited? She defied the Council in going to war with Revan, destroyed an entire planet, and came back to them, not a Jedi, but a walking Wound in the Force that could no longer feel the Force. According to the book Revan both she and Revan were considered war criminals because of Malachor V by the Jedi, though what the rest of the Republic thought isn't mentioned. What place did she have in the Order, having turned her back on it, and in that condition? Was she made an example of? Perhaps. IN Revan Atris says she was, but as we know from KotOR2, she wasn't exactly the best person to ask. If it was mentioned in game or not, I can't remember.



QUOTE
And what do you mean by "the hypocrisy which festers within the heart of the Jedi Order."? Because what comes before it makes it seem like you believe the Jedi should offer complete and unconditional forgiveness in all cases.

I'll address both of these points together. I believe it is unmerited for the Council to exile any Jedi who has not fallen to the dark side. As Obi-Wan said: 'Only Sith deal in absolutes.' As for the hypocrisy, well, the Jedi Code is supposedly very clear... yet:

There is no emotion, there is peace - But fear seems to constantly govern their actions. Fear of his own death precipitated the fall of Exar Kun. Fear of the unknown kept the Jedi out of the Mandalorian War, and caused them to exile a Jedi they should have tried to understand. And fear of personal loss causes Anakin Skywalker to fall.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge - but, when faced with an unknown, they turtle and hide. Master Zez-Kai Ell felt that the Council was wrong in punishing the Exile but, in typical Jedi fashion, he chose to follow the herd rather than make his feelings known.
There is no passion, there is serenity - but Atris was among those who pushed for the Exile's execution…
and on and on.

QUOTE
Regarding the attempt to strip her of the Force, they knew that this was no great ordeal for her, it was something she had already endured with no great hardship. Even Kreia remarks on how exceptional that is. As for why? She was possessed of two powers that the Council could not begin to control, as she would ignore them is she wished to. She had already demonstrated a willingness to use unthinkable force, and was actively growing stronger, making her different from any other Wound in the Force. It's doubtful the shattered remnants of the Jedi Order could have stopped her, should that Wound in the Force corrupt her, so how else could they protect those around her? They could not trust her after what she had done, and that was something she had brought upon herself.

A fair point, especially if you choose to play dark side. However, canonically the Exile is considered light side. She was the only one to resist the lure of the dark side. Even the Council was not of one mind on the subject (little wonder then that we aren't). Master Vash and Master Zez-Kai Ell consider her the perfect opportunity to examine why so many fall to the dark side, yet their voices are drowned out by fear and paranoia.

QUOTE
The Jedi were trying to prevent something of that nature, firstly by trying to understand the reasons behind the war, and secondly by trying to understand the effects going to war would have on the Jedi. Both of these were undermined by Revan going to war. You've confused not acting before they're ready with not acting at all, because after Revan joined the war they would not follow him. This is no basis for an assumption of what they would have done had Revan not done so.

So you're saying that the Jedi were just getting their ducks in a row? How exactly was all that understanding going for them? By the end of the war (which, again, Revan succeeded in winning) did they have a clearer understanding of the threat they faced? Even with Jedi in active participation which, ostensibly, was the Mandalorians goal all along we saw no indication of this so-called 'greater threat.' The Jedi let all those people die needlessly so that they could succeed in learning absolutely nothing. Then they turned their backs on their own which led the heroic Jedi who did act when the Republic was in need down a path which led to the dark side. Revan isn't responsible for the Jedi Civil War… the Jedi Council is.


QUOTE
Revan acting on that principle led to him becoming a Sith Lord, and waging a second, greater war on the Republic. And it was only thanks to the Jedi who followed the Jedi Council and did not go to war, that Revan didn't destroy the Republic, and build his own Sith empire.

Acting irresponsibly is worse than not acting at all, as Revan's fall so aptly demonstrates.

Another way to look at it is that Revan acting on that principle saved the Republic and defeated the Mandalorians. The Jedi ignoring that principle led Revan to go off without guidance into unknown space where he fell to the dark side.
mALX
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Dec 2 2015, 08:54 PM) *

I think I may have found a way to work around the bug of my characters ignoring their orders and blindly charging in and attacking the start of every fight. It seems that if I unpause the game for about a second, then pause again, I can issue orders that they will actually follow, such as throw grenades or use force powers.

I also finally settled into my Jedi Guardian Brigantia, and plan to finish the entire game with her. She just got her lightsaber, and wow, I have never had a Kotor character who could rack ass like her. She is throwing out 100 points of damage and change every round.

Darth Gillette

Visas - proof the Dark Side has lip gloss!

Our heroine

A hammerhead ship

Brigantia and her boys

Bao-Dur doing acrobatics

This time out I am finding I am liking Bao-Dur best of all the companions. In my previous plays I never really grasped that he is meant to be fight unarmed, and tried giving him weapons and was just disappointed. But this time out I am letting him Kung Fu his way through the game, and he is awesome! Bao-Dur's Charged Armor really helps as well, since he cannot wear pretty much every suit of armor in the game. Most of all though, I am really warming to his personality and backstory. I can feel Brigantia really drawn to him due to their shared experience of the Mandalorian War. Something neither of them wants to talk about, but at least can see that the other understands all too well. I can feel a powerful - even if unspoken - friendship there.






OH! Your new character is Brigantia! I thought it was Visas, oops!

That is so odd you need to pause it to get them to obey the commands, I wonder why? Is your team essential? I mean, when they charge in, do you have to worry about losing a member of your team?

I got a kick out of the "hammerhead ship," and it does kind of remind me of a hammerhead shark laugh.gif

The combat looks to be a little closer in on this game, I like that a lot better (for my eyesight too, lol).

That is funny about the one character "Kung Fu-ing" his way through the game, laugh.gif But very cool about the back story and sensation of closeness with that character - I really like when that happens in a game. I kind of got a little sense of that with Martin when you first brought him to Cloud Ruler Temple and he felt completely out of his element and kind of clung to the player as the only friend he had for a time. Really like when games can effect an actually feeling in a player.

Great shots!



Destri Melarg
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 5 2015, 07:07 AM) *

That is funny about the one character "Kung Fu-ing" his way through the game, laugh.gif But very cool about the back story and sensation of closeness with that character - I really like when that happens in a game. I kind of got a little sense of that with Martin when you first brought him to Cloud Ruler Temple and he felt completely out of his element and kind of clung to the player as the only friend he had for a time. Really like when games can effect an actually feeling in a player.

Great shots!

That is a consistent feature in Bioware's games that I would like to see Bethesda incorporate more. Even when the game itself is flawed (I'm looking at you Mass Effect 3) you are still able to enjoy the bond that you have forged with your crew over the course of 100+ hrs. Bethesda's followers feel tacked on by comparison. Fallout 4 is a (baby) step in the right direction. Followers now seem to have at least a bit of an existence independent of their meeting with the player, but IMHO they still haven't gone far enough.

And don't even get me started on the so-called 'romance' options. rolleyes.gif
mALX
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 5 2015, 12:31 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 5 2015, 07:07 AM) *

That is funny about the one character "Kung Fu-ing" his way through the game, laugh.gif But very cool about the back story and sensation of closeness with that character - I really like when that happens in a game. I kind of got a little sense of that with Martin when you first brought him to Cloud Ruler Temple and he felt completely out of his element and kind of clung to the player as the only friend he had for a time. Really like when games can effect an actually feeling in a player.

Great shots!

That is a consistent feature in Bioware's games that I would like to see Bethesda incorporate more. Even when the game itself is flawed (I'm looking at you Mass Effect 3) you are still able to enjoy the bond that you have forged with your crew over the course of 100+ hrs. Bethesda's followers feel tacked on by comparison. Fallout 4 is a (baby) step in the right direction. Followers now seem to have at least a bit of an existence independent of their meeting with the player, but IMHO they still haven't gone far enough.

And don't even get me started on the so-called 'romance' options. rolleyes.gif



*mALX nods head in agreement at the eye-rolling version of "Romance" Bethesda injects into the game*

"So, I see you have the necklace of Mara on. If you like me, we can get married! I'll sleep fully clothed in either your bed or your housecarl's bed; cook a meal that looks like a dried up pizza when asked; and give you money if you'll marry me. But don't expect my personality to change, though i will call you "honey" and "dear" ... etc. "

At least in Fallout: New Vegas you got to hear Fisto's whirring gizmos in the darkened background; along with his sexy banter, rollinglaugh.gif




Destri Melarg
QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 5 2015, 09:41 AM) *

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 5 2015, 12:31 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 5 2015, 07:07 AM) *

That is funny about the one character "Kung Fu-ing" his way through the game, laugh.gif But very cool about the back story and sensation of closeness with that character - I really like when that happens in a game. I kind of got a little sense of that with Martin when you first brought him to Cloud Ruler Temple and he felt completely out of his element and kind of clung to the player as the only friend he had for a time. Really like when games can effect an actually feeling in a player.

Great shots!

That is a consistent feature in Bioware's games that I would like to see Bethesda incorporate more. Even when the game itself is flawed (I'm looking at you Mass Effect 3) you are still able to enjoy the bond that you have forged with your crew over the course of 100+ hrs. Bethesda's followers feel tacked on by comparison. Fallout 4 is a (baby) step in the right direction. Followers now seem to have at least a bit of an existence independent of their meeting with the player, but IMHO they still haven't gone far enough.

And don't even get me started on the so-called 'romance' options. rolleyes.gif



*mALX nods head in agreement at the eye-rolling version of "Romance" Bethesda injects into the game*

"So, I see you have the necklace of Mara on. If you like me, we can get married! I'll sleep fully clothed in either your bed or your housecarl's bed; cook a meal that looks like a dried up pizza when asked; and give you money if you'll marry me. But don't expect my personality to change, though i will call you "honey" and "dear" ... etc. "

At least in Fallout: New Vegas you got to hear Fisto's whirring gizmos in the darkened background; along with his sexy banter, rollinglaugh.gif

Don't forget that you can be a confirmed Stormcloak and I can be a Dunmer, Argonian, or Khajiit laying waste to the Stormcloak population for the Empire and your dialogue won't even change!

And somehow I still haven't played New Vegas yet. laugh.gif
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