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Oblivion Remastered |
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Elisabeth Hollow |
May 4 2025, 02:32 AM
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Ancient

Joined: 15-November 12
From: Texas

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QUOTE(macole @ May 2 2025, 11:01 PM)  QUOTE(Elisabeth Hollow @ May 2 2025, 09:15 PM)  New player issues I'm seeing online: They don't know how to level up. One guy beat the entire game fighting wolves and scamps before asking online when he's suppose to level up.
Did he not sleep at all? I am assuming that the level up system still requires nap time. QUOTE Another guy only did the main quest and never talked to anyone not needed in the main quest, never leveled up. He fast traveled everywhere if he could. Didn't even know about the guilds or the Arena.
He missed 90% of the game! As poorly I RP, I wasn't that bad. Rule #1, learned in Daggerfall, reinforced in Morrowind: talk to everyone. Never slept. I'm guessing when there was that span of time Martin asks to study he just waited and didn't do anything else. I'm so meticulous about talking to everyone I can due to Oblivion that even in Baldur's Gate 3 I spoke to everyone I could.
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TheCheshireKhajiit |
May 4 2025, 03:38 AM
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Ancient

Joined: 28-September 16
From: Sheogorath's shrine talking to myselves!

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This is going to be a hot take, but I’m of the opinion that BGS games should drop the main quest and just focus on doing the best possible faction and side quests. I haven’t really enjoyed a BGS main quest since Oblivion. Fallout3’s was ok, but I thought the side stuff was more interesting. Skyrim’s was underwhelming, IMO, and I never even finished Fallout4’s main quest. Starfield’s is likewise mediocre, IMO.
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"Family is an odd thing, is it not? Defined by blood, separated by blood, joined by blood. In the end, it's all just blood." -Dhaunayne Aundae
May you walk on warm sands!
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SubRosa |
May 4 2025, 11:21 PM
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Ancient

Joined: 14-March 10
From: Between The Worlds

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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ May 3 2025, 10:38 PM)  This is going to be a hot take, but I’m of the opinion that BGS games should drop the main quest and just focus on doing the best possible faction and side quests. I haven’t really enjoyed a BGS main quest since Oblivion. Fallout3’s was ok, but I thought the side stuff was more interesting. Skyrim’s was underwhelming, IMO, and I never even finished Fallout4’s main quest. Starfield’s is likewise mediocre, IMO.
I have felt that way for a long time. But more than just because of Bethesda's writing (in)ability. An open world game is best served by embracing its greatest strength: the open world. A main quest is just a set of rails to force the characters along a predetermined path. Instead I believe it is better to abandon that, and lean into the fact that the players can and will want to go all over the place, and do all sorts of things, and will gladly ignore any main quest you try to foist off on them. Quests in and of themselves are not bad of course. On the contrary, they are stories, and a story can give our gameplay meaning. It makes things more interesting. So having quests in an open world is still good. They can give us little stories that we can experience in every part of the world that we travel. I am all for faction quests, and local quests, they bring flavor to every region.
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Lena Wolf |
May 5 2025, 12:18 AM
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Master

Joined: 18-May 21
From: Bravil

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@SubRosa - I agree with you completely. But... it seems there are too many players out there who absolutely need a Main Quest. I'm saying this from my experience with TWMP Skyrim Alive. Release 2 had 70 quests but they were all side quests and faction quests and people complained that the mod had no quests. (Apparently 70 = 0 in the absence of a MQ.) So in release 3 I introduced a Main Quest adding another 50 quests or so, but "unfortunately" the MQ is not straightforward, you are required to "go away and do stuff, Agent, because, umm, I can't use a green one like yourself - what was the Emperor thinking, sending me such complete nincompoops, I'll never know". So I now get complaints that the MQ isn't straightforward enough... and that people are FORCED to do side quests!! 
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"What is life's greatest illusion?" "Innocence, my brother."
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TheCheshireKhajiit |
May 5 2025, 04:18 AM
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Ancient

Joined: 28-September 16
From: Sheogorath's shrine talking to myselves!

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QUOTE(Lena Wolf @ May 4 2025, 06:18 PM)  So in release 3 I introduced a Main Quest adding another 50 quests or so, but "unfortunately" the MQ is not straightforward, you are required to "go away and do stuff, Agent, because, umm, I can't use a green one like yourself - what was the Emperor thinking, sending me such complete nincompoops, I'll never know". So I now get complaints that the MQ isn't straightforward enough... and that people are FORCED to do side quests!!  Well that’s how Morrowind did it and I thought Morrowind had the best story pacing of all of the BGS games I’ve played. I loved how Caius would tell you to go and “gain some experience” periodically before sending you out on the next leg of the main quest.
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"Family is an odd thing, is it not? Defined by blood, separated by blood, joined by blood. In the end, it's all just blood." -Dhaunayne Aundae
May you walk on warm sands!
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Lena Wolf |
May 5 2025, 05:16 AM
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Master

Joined: 18-May 21
From: Bravil

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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ May 5 2025, 04:18 AM)  QUOTE(Lena Wolf @ May 4 2025, 06:18 PM)  So in release 3 I introduced a Main Quest adding another 50 quests or so, but "unfortunately" the MQ is not straightforward, you are required to "go away and do stuff, Agent, because, umm, I can't use a green one like yourself - what was the Emperor thinking, sending me such complete nincompoops, I'll never know". So I now get complaints that the MQ isn't straightforward enough... and that people are FORCED to do side quests!!  Well that’s how Morrowind did it and I thought Morrowind had the best story pacing of all of the BGS games I’ve played. I loved how Caius would tell you to go and “gain some experience” periodically before sending you out on the next leg of the main quest. That's what gave me the idea. I loved it too. But I don't tell them to go and do stuff... I figured they are sufficiently smart to realise that if the MQ is stuck or too difficult, then may be they need to go off and start talking to people... sheesh... 
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"What is life's greatest illusion?" "Innocence, my brother."
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ghastley |
May 5 2025, 10:18 AM
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Councilor

Joined: 13-December 10

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I believe what Bethesda were trying to do with their main quests was just to provide a trail around the map that took you everywhere important. That way you could find the side quests for yourself, or not, if you just wanted to "beat the game". Morrowind's was a bit more inclusive of the faction quests. You had branches that depended on what house you joined, and the guild quests were more directly hooked into the MQ. Having faction incompatibilties was another quirk, presumably an attempt to encourage replay taking a different line. Oblivion dropped the idea of joining one faction locking out another, and one player character could do it all. Some prefer that, others prefer the MW way. You could do the MQ without joining anything, even the Blades. And Clark could just report on someone else doing it.
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Mods for The Elder Scrolls single-player games, and I play ESO.
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RaderOfTheLostArk |
May 5 2025, 12:36 PM
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Mouth

Joined: 4-May 17
From: Lilmoth, Black Marsh

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I've always felt the stark criticisms of Bethesda's writing were overblown. That's not to say that they're amazing or that they're shining examples that other writers should look to or they don't have their issues, of course. But they're decent enough or even pretty solid. I still wouldn't put Oblivion's or Skyrim's at the same level as Morrowind's (even though Morrowind's doesn't get critiqued as much as it could). Hell, arguably TESA: Redguard's main story is the best in the franchise, even more than Morrowind's.
But it's also hard to write a compelling main story in a game where the philosophy is "go and do whatever you want," especially if that main story has world-ending stakes to it. And I don't think Morrowind is an exception to that. The stakes just don't become apparent until much later in the story. Really, the only mainline TES game that doesn't fit this mold is Daggerfall. The stakes are much more localized and focused on political intrigue rather than an existential crisis. Which is still really cool, btw. And world-ending threats get tiresome after a while (as is the case in ESO).
At this point, though, I don't think TESVI can go a different route given the buildup from Skyrim and arguably the previous games, too. Which is fine, as long as it is done well.
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"[Insert awesome/inspiring/cool/smart/pseudo-intellectual quote here.]" - Me
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TheCheshireKhajiit |
May 5 2025, 02:40 PM
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Ancient

Joined: 28-September 16
From: Sheogorath's shrine talking to myselves!

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I liked Morrowind’s because it gave you the *illusion* that you could ignore it. Once you reported in to Caius and he told you to go get some experience, you could just never return. Heck, if your character was resentful about having been locked up in the first place, or just has a generally anti-authoritarian attitude, you could ditch the package you get from Sellus Gravius in the ocean and never think about it again. You could technically do this in Oblivion but every time you open your clothing inventory or got too near Kvatch, you’d be reminded about the world ending event that’s just not going to fix itself.
I guess what I would like to see most in a BGS game is a “career mode”, of sorts, that recognizes that not all characters have to be heroes of prophecy, and allows you to do side content without ever bumping up against the main quest. Say maybe you do a mundane job for a character that is tied to the main quest and they recognize some potential in you and then sends you on to the next character in the chain.
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"Family is an odd thing, is it not? Defined by blood, separated by blood, joined by blood. In the end, it's all just blood." -Dhaunayne Aundae
May you walk on warm sands!
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