QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM)
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It is when we are children that we begin to learn to deal with our emotions. First we throw tantrums. Then if we have good parenting we learn that simply screaming is not the way to get what we want and need. We learn to love and care for others. We learn what is like to lose those we love - when our goldfish dies, when the family dog or cat dies, as we watch grandma and grampa die. This is where we first learn to deal with grief, and to understand that we can live with loss. Childhood is one of the most important parts of a person's life, because this is when ideas and behaviors are first instilled, such as possessing a conscience. Instead of learning how to wield lightsabers, 8-year olds should be learning how to be 8-year olds. How to just live life as decent sentient beings, rather than how to be killing machines.
But powers they cannot control? One thing the movies and games have been very clear about is that without training, force ability is all but wasted. No one even has a clue that they are force-sensitive until an actual force-user tells them. Anakin was the Uber Chosen One, possessing the most raw power of any Force-user ever. Yet without training all that amounted to was he was a good pod racer. Luke was force-sensitive, but without Obi-Wan's guidance he was just a good pilot. The same with Leia, and so on.
At the age of eighteen, Dessel, who later became Darth Bane, used the Force to kill his father. He had received no training, was unaware of his abilities, but had a great deal of anger. A standout case, I'll grant you, but in the books there are plenty of references to Force sensitive individuals gaining a measure of control over their abilities without training. A child throwing a tantrum may well be able to lash out with the Force.
And considering that the prequels are a continuity trainwreck, even with just the original films, I'm inclined to ignore anything from them. Particularly where Anakin Skywalker is concerned, in light of the hang up they had with him.
But, this entire discussion is rather academic. If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM)
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OTOH, the entire army of Jedi that went to war with Revan turned to the dark side. As you said yourself, even Luke went to the dark side. People in the KOTOR games don't like Jedi because they cannot see any difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Given that most of the Sith were Jedi it is no surprise. The Sith (not the race, but the 'modern' force-users) even started out as renegade Jedi. The failings of the Jedi Order created them. That is pretty significant.
Revan was something of a special case. He basically had his mind controlled by the single most powerful Force user in existence, the Sith Emperor, who turned him against the Republic to pave the way for his invasion. As for Revan turning the rest, Kreia explains that in one of the conversations with her.
And why would the people in KotOR see any difference between Jedi and Sith? It was Revan who led the Jedi into the war against the Mandalorians, only to disappear, return as Sith, and wage war on the Republic. When you've got a Jedi hero leading an army of Sith, you think the people are going to differentiate?
And Luke thought he was saving the galaxy somehow by doing so, and I believe it was implied that he believed his father had made the same choice. It's been a while since I read the graphic novels in question.
And it should be pointed out that the conflict between light and dark side Force users has been taking place since the Force was first harnessed, long before the dogmatic Jedi Order was even established. Since we don't know the specifics of how it began, or the original doctrines regarding training of those who were Force sensitive, it is entirely possible that what your advocating was tried and failed, leading to the Jedi and their doctrine.
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM)
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Remember that the dark side is constantly tempting people. That is not a stabilizing influence. The more one is in touch with the Force, the more danger there is of going over the edge. A person really needs to know themselves to survive that temptation. Locking yourself out from your own feelings is a guarantee that you will not be able to control yourself. I am not making this up. Look up Repression or Facing The Shadow. Even without super-powers thrown in, that is a powderkeg just waiting to go off.
At no point have I suggested or thought anything along those lines.
However, by your arguments the vast majority of Jedi should fall prey to the dark side. The Jedi Order should have collapsed long before even the time of Revan, just under the sheer number of dark Jedi they were creating. The fact that they didn't implies that something's working in their favour. So either the vast majority of Jedi weren't encountering any triggers to turn them to the dark side, or the fact that they were in a way connected to all life in the galaxy acted as a stabilising influence on their minds.
If your argument is that the Jedi Order shouldn't exist because they'd all go off the deep end due to being emotionally repressed, then the only reason they're still around is because the authors and writers say they are. Which essentially makes this a moot topic.
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM)
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This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in the KotOR games that the Jedi Council thought there was something else behind the war with the Mandalorians? It's been a while since I played them, so I'm not quite sure. It probably would have been KotOR2.
As for the Exile, she(it's actually canon that the exile was female) had a very particular affliction. She was a wound in the force, the same kind of phenomenon that we see in Darth's Nihlus and Sion. What's said about her by the Jedi Masters in KotOR2 makes it very clear that there was something very wrong with her, something that couldn't be cured, which was as much the reason for her being exiled as her actions. By the time she reached the Council she couldn't even feel the Force anymore, because of it.
QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM)
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And Luke didn't leave Dagobah because of his failure in the cave. The two events had nothing to do with each other. He left Dagobah after the vision of his friends in trouble. He chose to act (like Revan before him) despite Yoda's counsel that he should simply do nothing... which, it seems, is the Jedi way.
Luke reacted the same way to the test and to the vision. He freaked out, and let his fear push him into reckless action. He only survived the fight with Vader because Vader wanted to turn him to the dark side rather than kill him. Luke simply wasn't ready for the fight, which is why Yoda wanted him to finish his training. If Vader had wanted Luke dead, Luke wouldn't have stood a chance at that point.