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> Kotor, The Knights of the Old Repulic 1 & 2 topic
Callidus Thorn
post Nov 26 2015, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 12:03 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 25 2015, 05:05 PM) *

While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it can be directly applied to the Jedi. Bear in mind we don't know the mechanics of how the Jedi and Sith manipulate and direct the Force, the impact their emotional state has on that, or exactly how great the risks involved are. What we're doing is the equivalent of debating magical techniques in Dungeons and Dragons.

But consider how much damage an emotionally unstable person could do with a gun. The Force has far greater destructive potential than that, and it's not something someone can simply put down. Stripping them of their connection to the Force is possible, but appears to require several Jedi Masters to do so, and is irreversible. And these individuals can manipulate the Force long before they would reach emotional maturity.

The Jedi have thousands of years worth of examples of what can happen when a Jedi turns to the dark side, including Sith Lords who've brought the Republic to it's knees, fought the Jedi Order to the brink of destruction, or wiped out entire planets. It's not like they're exaggerating the threat, and using emotions to channel the Force is a Sith doctrine, written into their own Code. Is it really any surprise the Jedi take the opposite stance?

Which is why if they were wise, the Jedi would learn to control their emotions. Especially before they learn to kill people with nothing but a thought. As I said, repressing your emotions is a guarantee that you cannot control them. It insures an unstable mind. The Jedi's very teachings push them to the dark side. They create the threat with their own ignorance of basic psychology.


Two things:

1) That would mean trying to teach emotional control to small children who possess powers they can't/don't understand, may not be able to properly control, and may well fall into bad habits should they develop a degree of control on their own.

2) Considering that the vast majority of Jedi in the Star Wars universe have not been nuts and turning to the dark side, it would appear The Force provides some form of stabilising influence.


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SubRosa
post Nov 26 2015, 04:00 AM
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It is when we are children that we begin to learn to deal with our emotions. First we throw tantrums. Then if we have good parenting we learn that simply screaming is not the way to get what we want and need. We learn to love and care for others. We learn what is like to lose those we love - when our goldfish dies, when the family dog or cat dies, as we watch grandma and grampa die. This is where we first learn to deal with grief, and to understand that we can live with loss. Childhood is one of the most important parts of a person's life, because this is when ideas and behaviors are first instilled, such as possessing a conscience. Instead of learning how to wield lightsabers, 8-year olds should be learning how to be 8-year olds. How to just live life as decent sentient beings, rather than how to be killing machines.

But powers they cannot control? One thing the movies and games have been very clear about is that without training, force ability is all but wasted. No one even has a clue that they are force-sensitive until an actual force-user tells them. Anakin was the Uber Chosen One, possessing the most raw power of any Force-user ever. Yet without training all that amounted to was he was a good pod racer. Luke was force-sensitive, but without Obi-Wan's guidance he was just a good pilot. The same with Leia, and so on.

OTOH, the entire army of Jedi that went to war with Revan turned to the dark side. As you said yourself, even Luke went to the dark side. People in the KOTOR games don't like Jedi because they cannot see any difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Given that most of the Sith were Jedi it is no surprise. The Sith (not the race, but the 'modern' force-users) even started out as renegade Jedi. The failings of the Jedi Order created them. That is pretty significant.

Remember that the dark side is constantly tempting people. That is not a stabilizing influence. The more one is in touch with the Force, the more danger there is of going over the edge. A person really needs to know themselves to survive that temptation. Locking yourself out from your own feelings is a guarantee that you will not be able to control yourself. I am not making this up. Look up Repression or Facing The Shadow. Even without super-powers thrown in, that is a powderkeg just waiting to go off.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 26 2015, 04:05 AM


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Destri Melarg
post Nov 26 2015, 06:22 AM
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This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.

And Luke didn't leave Dagobah because of his failure in the cave. The two events had nothing to do with each other. He left Dagobah after the vision of his friends in trouble. He chose to act (like Revan before him) despite Yoda's counsel that he should simply do nothing... which, it seems, is the Jedi way.

This post has been edited by Destri Melarg: Nov 26 2015, 06:30 AM


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 26 2015, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM) *

It is when we are children that we begin to learn to deal with our emotions. First we throw tantrums. Then if we have good parenting we learn that simply screaming is not the way to get what we want and need. We learn to love and care for others. We learn what is like to lose those we love - when our goldfish dies, when the family dog or cat dies, as we watch grandma and grampa die. This is where we first learn to deal with grief, and to understand that we can live with loss. Childhood is one of the most important parts of a person's life, because this is when ideas and behaviors are first instilled, such as possessing a conscience. Instead of learning how to wield lightsabers, 8-year olds should be learning how to be 8-year olds. How to just live life as decent sentient beings, rather than how to be killing machines.

But powers they cannot control? One thing the movies and games have been very clear about is that without training, force ability is all but wasted. No one even has a clue that they are force-sensitive until an actual force-user tells them. Anakin was the Uber Chosen One, possessing the most raw power of any Force-user ever. Yet without training all that amounted to was he was a good pod racer. Luke was force-sensitive, but without Obi-Wan's guidance he was just a good pilot. The same with Leia, and so on.


At the age of eighteen, Dessel, who later became Darth Bane, used the Force to kill his father. He had received no training, was unaware of his abilities, but had a great deal of anger. A standout case, I'll grant you, but in the books there are plenty of references to Force sensitive individuals gaining a measure of control over their abilities without training. A child throwing a tantrum may well be able to lash out with the Force.

And considering that the prequels are a continuity trainwreck, even with just the original films, I'm inclined to ignore anything from them. Particularly where Anakin Skywalker is concerned, in light of the hang up they had with him.

But, this entire discussion is rather academic. If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM) *

OTOH, the entire army of Jedi that went to war with Revan turned to the dark side. As you said yourself, even Luke went to the dark side. People in the KOTOR games don't like Jedi because they cannot see any difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Given that most of the Sith were Jedi it is no surprise. The Sith (not the race, but the 'modern' force-users) even started out as renegade Jedi. The failings of the Jedi Order created them. That is pretty significant.


Revan was something of a special case. He basically had his mind controlled by the single most powerful Force user in existence, the Sith Emperor, who turned him against the Republic to pave the way for his invasion. As for Revan turning the rest, Kreia explains that in one of the conversations with her.

And why would the people in KotOR see any difference between Jedi and Sith? It was Revan who led the Jedi into the war against the Mandalorians, only to disappear, return as Sith, and wage war on the Republic. When you've got a Jedi hero leading an army of Sith, you think the people are going to differentiate?

And Luke thought he was saving the galaxy somehow by doing so, and I believe it was implied that he believed his father had made the same choice. It's been a while since I read the graphic novels in question.

And it should be pointed out that the conflict between light and dark side Force users has been taking place since the Force was first harnessed, long before the dogmatic Jedi Order was even established. Since we don't know the specifics of how it began, or the original doctrines regarding training of those who were Force sensitive, it is entirely possible that what your advocating was tried and failed, leading to the Jedi and their doctrine.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:00 AM) *

Remember that the dark side is constantly tempting people. That is not a stabilizing influence. The more one is in touch with the Force, the more danger there is of going over the edge. A person really needs to know themselves to survive that temptation. Locking yourself out from your own feelings is a guarantee that you will not be able to control yourself. I am not making this up. Look up Repression or Facing The Shadow. Even without super-powers thrown in, that is a powderkeg just waiting to go off.


At no point have I suggested or thought anything along those lines.

However, by your arguments the vast majority of Jedi should fall prey to the dark side. The Jedi Order should have collapsed long before even the time of Revan, just under the sheer number of dark Jedi they were creating. The fact that they didn't implies that something's working in their favour. So either the vast majority of Jedi weren't encountering any triggers to turn them to the dark side, or the fact that they were in a way connected to all life in the galaxy acted as a stabilising influence on their minds.

If your argument is that the Jedi Order shouldn't exist because they'd all go off the deep end due to being emotionally repressed, then the only reason they're still around is because the authors and writers say they are. Which essentially makes this a moot topic.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.


Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in the KotOR games that the Jedi Council thought there was something else behind the war with the Mandalorians? It's been a while since I played them, so I'm not quite sure. It probably would have been KotOR2.

As for the Exile, she(it's actually canon that the exile was female) had a very particular affliction. She was a wound in the force, the same kind of phenomenon that we see in Darth's Nihlus and Sion. What's said about her by the Jedi Masters in KotOR2 makes it very clear that there was something very wrong with her, something that couldn't be cured, which was as much the reason for her being exiled as her actions. By the time she reached the Council she couldn't even feel the Force anymore, because of it.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

And Luke didn't leave Dagobah because of his failure in the cave. The two events had nothing to do with each other. He left Dagobah after the vision of his friends in trouble. He chose to act (like Revan before him) despite Yoda's counsel that he should simply do nothing... which, it seems, is the Jedi way.


Luke reacted the same way to the test and to the vision. He freaked out, and let his fear push him into reckless action. He only survived the fight with Vader because Vader wanted to turn him to the dark side rather than kill him. Luke simply wasn't ready for the fight, which is why Yoda wanted him to finish his training. If Vader had wanted Luke dead, Luke wouldn't have stood a chance at that point.


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SubRosa
post Nov 26 2015, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 03:20 AM) *

If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.

I do not think it is because they were screwing people up for kicks. I think it is because they were fools. More specifically, because George Lucas doesn't know a whole lot about some of the most basic realities of human psychology. He wrote what he did in ignorance. Teaching people to repress their emotions does not make them stable, it makes them timebombs.

The vast majority of Jedi should fall to the dark side. They would if they really existed and followed the Jedi code. Because that is how the human mind works (and apparently every alien mind, since I do not believe I have ever seen an alien race in the Star Wars universe display patterns of thought or feeling different from human ones). That is what I am getting at. Lucas' writing that created the Jedi code is flawed.


QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.

In Kotor 1 you learn that the Jedi Council held back from getting involved in the Mandalorian War because they felt some hidden, darker force orchestrating events. That turned out to be a Sith (the race) Empire hiding beyond Republic space. They had put the Mandalorians up to attacking the Republic. The Council wanted to wait to see what it was before committing any Jedi to the conflict. But Revan went anyway and won, and then the Sith somehow captured him and turned him, and apparently he turned the rest of his Jedi, except the Exile.

So the Council was right in that something else was out there. But their failure to act is just as damning IMHO. If not for Revan the Mandalorians would have enslaved the galaxy, the Jedi would have been hunted down one by one and killed, and the Sith would have won. OTOH, if the Council had taken part in the war, then I believe Revan would not have fallen. I base this assumption simply on the fact that the Sith Empire was hidden. If they were hiding, then they were not able to face the Republic and the Jedi Council openly. Instead they had to use proxies like the Mandalorians. So if the Council had been present, they would have been too strong for the Sith to have been able to kidnap them and turn them, as they did Revan. That is an assumption, but it seems to me that if the Sith had been strong enough to attack openly, they would have, and not hidden.

I think there is a novel or comic series that detailed it all, but I never read them, I am just going by what I read in Wookiepedia. Kotor 1 never gives any specifics about the hidden Sith Empire, or that it was even Sith. All the game ever says is a hidden enemy. So my guess is that someone simply took the events of the game, and decided to write some EU material about it after the fact which fleshed things out.

I also found myself intensely disliking the Jedi Council by the end of Kotor 1. Kotor 2 just made it worse. I suspect that the Council's unwillingness to act was simply a writing ploy used by Bioware and inherited by Obisidian as a way to make sure the player character is the only one who can save the galaxy. Just like how in Skyrim no npc can do anything, not even carry a sword from their smithy to give to their father. The player character has to do everything, because they are special. If the Council had gotten off their robed rears, there would be nothing for the player to do!

Oh, and it eventually became canon that the Jedi Exile was female, years after the game. I think it is the only case where a female protagonist is canon in a Star Wars game.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 26 2015, 05:06 PM


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 26 2015, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:37 PM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 03:20 AM) *

If they could simply wait until a Force sensitive individual was an emotionally stable adult before training them to use the Force, then why weren't they simply doing that? Unless you think they were just screwing people up for kicks, then there must be a very specific reason for their approach.

I do not think it is because they were screwing people up for kicks. I think it is because they were fools. More specifically, because George Lucas doesn't know a whole lot about some of the most basic realities of human psychology. He wrote what he did in ignorance. Teaching people to repress their emotions does not make them stable, it makes them timebombs.

The vast majority of Jedi should fall to the dark side. They would if they really existed and followed the Jedi code. Because that is how the human mind works (and apparently every alien mind, since I do not believe I have ever seen an alien race in the Star Wars universe display patterns of thought or feeling different from human ones). That is what I am getting at. Lucas' writing that created the Jedi code is flawed.


Well, far be it from me to defend Lucas rollinglaugh.gif

There are some alien races that think and behave differently to humans, but they don't tend to feature in central roles for obvious reasons.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 26 2015, 03:37 PM) *

So the Council was right in that something else was out there. But their failure to act is just as damning IMHO. If not for Revan the Mandalorians would have enslaved the galaxy, the Jedi would have been hunted down one by one and killed, and the Sith would have won. OTOH, if the Council had taken part in the war, then I believe Revan would not have fallen. I base this assumption simply on the fact that the Sith Empire was hidden. If they were hiding, then they were not able to face the Republic and the Jedi Council openly. Instead they had to use proxies like the Mandalorians. So if the Council had been present, they would have been too strong for the Sith to have been able to kidnap them and turn them, as they did Revan. That is an assumption, but it seems to me that if the Sith had been strong enough to attack openly, they would have, and not hidden.

I think there is a novel or comic series that detailed it all, but I never read them, I am just going by what I read in Wookiepedia. Kotor 1 never gives any specifics about the hidden Sith Empire, or that it was even Sith. All the game ever says is a hidden enemy. So my guess is that someone simply took the events of the game, and decided to write some EU material about it after the fact which fleshed things out.


To be precise, the opened ended hints dropped in KotOR&2 regarding Revan and his actions were turned into a tie in for The Old Republic. I believe Revan actually appears in the game, though I can't say for certain.

According to the book Revan (which takes place before and after KotOR2, I've read it once or twice)

At the end of the Mandalorian War, Mandalore the Ultimate, as he lay dying, revealed to Revan that the Sith had promised him victory. Revan and Malak went looking for answers, and found more than they expected to find. They found that Mandalore had told the truth, that the Sith were still out there(This would be after the Great Hyperspace War, 1,000 years before). They assumed that the Mandalorians had been manipulated into attacking the Republic either to prepare the way for their invasion, or to simply test its strength. Rather than report their findings to the Council they went in search of the Sith Empire, and found them.

Whether the Council's presence would have made any difference is debatable. The Sith Emperor is supposedly a thousand years old, killed/absorbed an entire planet with his powers, and so might have been able to dominate the entire Council.

But it should be noted that Revan, in some small way, did manage to fight the compulsion placed on him, unlike Malak. Hints are dropped, in KotOR2 I believe(I think the Handmaiden mentions it, maybe Kreia too), that Revan's campaign against the Republic was waged in such a way as to preserve certain levels of infrastructure. It's implied he might actually have been intending to conquer the galaxy to keep something else from doing so, though that's speculation. But, as with just about every Jedi hero in the games, Revan is made out to be something special.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Nov 26 2015, 05:49 PM


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SubRosa
post Nov 26 2015, 08:47 PM
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I discovered something interesting in Kotor 2. Visas always appears in the same outfit no matter what you give her to wear. She does not even get the option to choose any of the armor feats during level up. But if you use the Kotor Editor to give them to her, she can wear armor normally, and it replaces her standard outfit. Except for the hood, which she always keeps.

I found a mod that allows you to use force powers with any armor. So now I have Visas in a suit of Light Echani Armor, the same as my character Brighid.

I tried the same with Kreia, but with her it does not work. She still looks exactly the same, even with Heavy Mandalorian Armor.

I am also enjoying Kotor 2 less than Kotor 1. There seems to be a lot more cinematics, usually piled one on top of the next so it takes forever get through and actually play the damn game. I am always crossing my fingers that the game does not crash during one, and force me to go through it all over again.

But worse is the combat mechanics. The game often ignores the commands I put in for my team to do, and just does whatever it feels like. Which usually means charging forward and attacking with the base melee attack. It doesn't matter if I set them to Ranged or Stationary. Usually it occurs when I tell them to throw a grenade or use a force power buff. Instead they charge in. I don't remember that ever happening in Kotor 1.

I am also disappointed with the outfits. The Jedi Robes all look like shapeless bags to me, especially when viewed from behind (which face it, is most of the game). In Kotor 1 I got over it with a mod that adds some really cool robes based off Bastila's. But I haven't found any clothing mods for Kotor 2 that look good. Hence my using Echani armor and that mod that makes Force powers work with everything.


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 26 2015, 08:59 PM
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As I recall there are a couple of armours that allow the use of force powers, but them popping up is solely down to the rng. I always used to hunt these down for my characters, just because I like the look of them.

I do recall getting a recurring glitch pop up on the xbox version of the game where commands wouldn't be properly acknowledged. I can't quite remember, but I think it had something to do with the timing of the command and what the character was doing.

I'm not sure why they'd be ignoring their weapons though, never seen that before. And considering I used to play these games on the 360 with its terrible backwards compatability that meant even more bugs, that's really saying something.


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SubRosa
post Nov 26 2015, 10:14 PM
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They do use whatever weapon they have equipped. They just make the normal attack with it, rather than say flurry or critical strike. Of course this is when I want them to use a grenade...


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 26 2015, 10:59 PM
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Ah, gotcha.

I take it you're directly ordering the attack, rather than queuing it? I seem to recall that being more effective at getting the characters to do what I wanted them to.

I can't be certain of the exact circumstances(and this was on the xbox version), but I believe that ordering an attack, rather than queuing it, during the wrong part of an animation resulted in it being overwritten by a repeat of the attack in progress at the time. I recall it being a real pain when trying to heal, for instance. I don't know if that's what happening in your game, but it's the only thing along those lines that I can remember.

It's been far too long since I've played these games sad.gif

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Nov 26 2015, 11:19 PM


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SubRosa
post Nov 27 2015, 03:48 AM
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I just tried it again, and at the beginning of a fight I filled up Visas' action queue with force lightning, and my PC Brighid's queue with grenades. Both of them charged forward and attacked in melee instead. Then after their first attack, started the lightning and tossing grenades. The latter of course being at point blank range thanks to Brighid running up to the target first. *sigh*


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 27 2015, 09:31 AM
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Right, dealing with the initial attack seems to have two options. From what I've found online pressing f should cancel all combat actions, so that might stop the initial attack. The alternative would be to go into the settings and set the game to pause when sighting an enemy, letting you queue combat actions without the auto-attack getting in the way.


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SubRosa
post Nov 27 2015, 04:29 PM
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I do have the auto-pause set when sighting an enemy, and the queues are empty when I add in grenade throwing or force power usage.

Interesting thing, it does not happen when I do not have any companions. I restarted the game, and it has not happened once. I have been alone all this time.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 27 2015, 09:59 PM


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 27 2015, 11:38 PM
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Hmm, that is weird. I don't recall coming across a bug like that.

Then again it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

biggrin.gif


Sorry.


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SubRosa
post Nov 29 2015, 09:56 PM
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In the past I have always created characters with high Dexterity and never bothered putting any points into Strength. First because you needed a high Dex bonus to make up for the lack of real armor you could wear and still use Force powers. Second because in Kotor 1 you automatically used either your Dex or Strength bonus to hit with a lightsaber, whichever is higher. In Kotor 2 there is a Feat you can take for that. Finally your Dex bonus is what you use to hit with ranged weapons like blasters. So Strength always felt superfluous to me.

But thanks to the mod that allows you to use force powers with any armor I have been rethinking that. I restarted Kotor 2 with a Jedi Guardian who is all Strength and no Dexterity. She'll be sticking to vibroblades in the early game, and dual lightsabers later. The Force Jump should make closing to melee range easy. For armor I can now use anything. Given that there are some out there with Defense bonuses of +10 and higher, defense should be no problem.

I also modded the classes a little to give Jedi Guardians and Consulars more skill points to spend, as a well as give Guardians a little more Force points, and Consulars a little more health. That should hopefully help with my biggest dislike of the Guardian class - low skill points.

I already created my Guardian Brigantia to give it a go. Then I used the Kotor Savegame Editor to remove some of the combat feats I won't be using, like Flurry and Sniper Shot, and instead took a bunch of Skill Focus feats to turn Security, Computer Use, and Repair into class skills (those Feats are one of the things I love about Kotor 2). I'll start playing her today, and see how it works. I am kind of excited, because it is something I have never done before in a Kotor game.


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Destri Melarg
post Dec 1 2015, 08:50 AM
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Sorry if this debate has run its course, but...

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 12:20 AM) *

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 26 2015, 05:22 AM) *

This has turned into a fascinating debate. SubRosa articulated my feelings on the subject perfectly, so I won't just parrot what she has already said. The logic behind the teachings of the order don't concern me as much as their tendency to run from their stated purpose of protecting the Republic. For the most part the Jedi who left to join the Mandalorian Wars weren't succumbing to their baser emotions, they were simply trying to fulfill their purpose as Jedi. And, instead of embracing these young Jedi the Order chose to shun them. The Exile didn't fall to the dark side, yet she (because she is always female in my mind) was shunned by the Order as well. That wasn't the Order protecting itself, that was the Order acting out in a fit of pique... and it smacks as so hypocritical that it makes me hate the Jedi by the end of the game, even when I play a light character.


Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in the KotOR games that the Jedi Council thought there was something else behind the war with the Mandalorians? It's been a while since I played them, so I'm not quite sure. It probably would have been KotOR2.

As for the Exile, she(it's actually canon that the exile was female) had a very particular affliction. She was a wound in the force, the same kind of phenomenon that we see in Darth's Nihlus and Sion. What's said about her by the Jedi Masters in KotOR2 makes it very clear that there was something very wrong with her, something that couldn't be cured, which was as much the reason for her being exiled as her actions. By the time she reached the Council she couldn't even feel the Force anymore, because of it.

As I recall they did feel that there was something behind the Mandalorian threat and they used that feeling as the reason they wouldn't commit to war. I'm curious, do you honestly believe that instinct (or force vision, intuition, etc) minus proof somehow absolves them for the billions that died under their so-called protection?

Thank you both for the clarification. I honestly didn’t know that the Exile was considered female. happy.gif

On point, I was under the impression that her connection to the force was severed on Malachor V, and that the wound you speak of was created there both by her actions, and by the things that she witnessed. Like you I am going strictly from memory, so let me know if I’m wrong. The Jedi Masters discomfort with her started early in her training, as I remember it. It had something to do with her ability to form connections through the force (which sounds a lot like petty jealousy when you really stop to think about it… especially from 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).

All that aside, as of the time of KOTOR 2 there are only two known beings in the galaxy designated as so-called ‘wounds in the force’, The Exile and Darth Nihlus. Knowing what we do of the nature of balance within the force, isn’t it an obvious supposition that the Exile represents light to Nihlus’ darkness? Yet, without even considering that possibility the Jedi Masters take it upon themselves to attempt to permanently sever her connection to the force (which, we are told, is a fate worse than death to a force sensitive) because she possesses a power they cannot quantify or control. Earlier some of these same ‘Masters’ chose to destroy Revan’s mind and replace it with another because he has gone beyond their ability to manipulate and control.

Of course the above is an interpretation on my part, but it is an interpretation that is informed by the events of the game.

QUOTE
Luke reacted the same way to the test and to the vision. He freaked out, and let his fear push him into reckless action. He only survived the fight with Vader because Vader wanted to turn him to the dark side rather than kill him. Luke simply wasn't ready for the fight, which is why Yoda wanted him to finish his training. If Vader had wanted Luke dead, Luke wouldn't have stood a chance at that point.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I’m not arguing that Luke was in any way ready to face Vader, He clearly wasn’t. I’m saying that choosing to act and choosing to face Vader (rather than the alternative) did more for his training as a Jedi that ten years of lifting X-Wings on Dagobah would have. You said yourself (and the events of the film tells us) that he was ready to be a full Jedi by the time he returned to Dagobah... without any further training from Yoda.

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 26 2015, 08:41 AM) *

But it should be noted that Revan, in some small way, did manage to fight the compulsion placed on him, unlike Malak. Hints are dropped, in KotOR2 I believe(I think the Handmaiden mentions it, maybe Kreia too), that Revan's campaign against the Republic was waged in such a way as to preserve certain levels of infrastructure. It's implied he might actually have been intending to conquer the galaxy to keep something else from doing so, though that's speculation. But, as with just about every Jedi hero in the games, Revan is made out to be something special.

I remember that exact phrase too, so I don't think you're speculating. If so that goes a long way to support what 'Rosa is saying about the success Revan could have had resisting the lure of the dark side if he could have turned to the Council (though, of course, not to 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).

Oh and a very happy belated birthday to you, Callidus.

This post has been edited by Destri Melarg: Dec 1 2015, 08:54 AM


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mirocu
post Dec 1 2015, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 06:03 PM) *

The point is that he faced the dark side in that cave and emerged the better for it, despite the so-called failure. That failure is what fueled him to be able to withstand the later confrontations with Vader, which I don't believe would have been possible without the failure in the cave. Too often we see the Jedi run from those confrontations out of fear for what could happen. That, to me, is the very definition of cowardice.

And Clone Wars Obi-Wan absolutely failed, I agree with you on that. But success is not a measure of what makes one a good guy.

We grow from failure, not from success wink.gif


But what do I know? I´m just a rebel scum... tongue.gif


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Callidus Thorn
post Dec 1 2015, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

Sorry if this debate has run its course, but...


Heh, I could talk Star Wars all day laugh.gif

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

As I recall they did feel that there was something behind the Mandalorian threat and they used that feeling as the reason they wouldn't commit to war. I'm curious, do you honestly believe that instinct (or force vision, intuition, etc) minus proof somehow absolves them for the billions that died under their so-called protection?


But they had proof that something wasn't right. the Mandalorians weren't waging a war of conquest, but actively seeking to draw the Republic into battle. And went to some lengths to do so. And why? To fight the inferior warriors of the Republic? No, they wanted to fight the Jedi. But to what end? To see who were the better warriors? To test themselves? Or for some darker, unknown purpose? I believe both Mandalore and Kreia both say that it wasn't the Republic that was important, but the Jedi, so the Council was right to hold back to try and understand why the Mandalorians wanted to fight the Jedi.

Charging into a conflict without understanding it is a sure way to get in over your head. Which is exactly what happened to Revan.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

On point, I was under the impression that her connection to the force was severed on Malachor V, and that the wound you speak of was created there both by her actions, and by the things that she witnessed. Like you I am going strictly from memory, so let me know if I’m wrong. The Jedi Masters discomfort with her started early in her training, as I remember it. It had something to do with her ability to form connections through the force (which sounds a lot like petty jealousy when you really stop to think about it… especially from 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).

All that aside, as of the time of KOTOR 2 there are only two known beings in the galaxy designated as so-called ‘wounds in the force’, The Exile and Darth Nihlus. Knowing what we do of the nature of balance within the force, isn’t it an obvious supposition that the Exile represents light to Nihlus’ darkness? Yet, without even considering that possibility the Jedi Masters take it upon themselves to attempt to permanently sever her connection to the force (which, we are told, is a fate worse than death to a force sensitive) because she possesses a power they cannot quantify or control. Earlier some of these same ‘Masters’ chose to destroy Revan’s mind and replace it with another because he has gone beyond their ability to manipulate and control.

Of course the above is an interpretation on my part, but it is an interpretation that is informed by the events of the game.


Yes, it was at Malachor V that the Exile was wounded(I guess that's the best term to use). The Jedi Masters might have been uncertain about training her, but in all honesty, I think that that's as much to make The Exile into the same sort of Nexus that Revan was. Kreia spoke of the bonds of loyalty, and implies that Revan used them to turn those who followed him, and the Exile was given something similar but more innate.

Iirc the Sith Assassins in KotOR2 were given training based off of Force wounds, letting them draw strength from their enemies. This likely played a sizable role in their success. The balance in the Force argument, to my mind, tends to be rather weak. They've got a Sith Lord running around with the capability to destroy entire planets, and I believe it's uncertain how much the Jedi knew about Nihlus at the time. But, as dangerous as Nihlus was, The Exile probably had even greater potential because of her forging connections that so unnerved the Masters. If we assume that they knew even a little about how Revan was turning Jedi during the Jedi Civil War(his process involved Wounds in the Force) then The Exile might have been able to turn anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Found something on Wookiepedia on it: Link

And it should be noted that The Exile had lived without the Force since Malachor V, so I don't see that it could be considered a fate worse than death to her. I mean, we literally see them regain their connection to the Force in KotOR2.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

I remember that exact phrase too, so I don't think you're speculating. If so that goes a long way to support what 'Rosa is saying about the success Revan could have had resisting the lure of the dark side if he could have turned to the Council (though, of course, not to 'Master' Vrook tongue.gif ).


The problem with that line of thinking is that it wasn't a question of resisting the lure of the dark side. What the Sith Emperor did to Revan was similar to what the Jedi did to him after they captured him. It wasn't a fall to the dark side, it was having part of his mind effectively remade, a kind of Force-powered brainwashing, to turn him into a Sith. Compared to Malak, who destroyed Taris and wrecked Dantooine, he was fighting the compulsion placed upon him. But he was no more free of the dark side than Malak was, no less willing to wage war on the Republic than Malak was.

And whether or not he could have fought the compulsion if he met the Sith Emperor again is utterly unknown.

The only way the Jedi Civil War could have been avoided is if Revan had followed the Council. Because that's the only way he wouldn't have ended up finding the hidden Sith Empire.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Dec 1 2015, 07:50 AM) *

Oh and a very happy belated birthday to you, Callidus.


Thank you. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Dec 1 2015, 12:47 PM


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SubRosa
post Dec 3 2015, 02:54 AM
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I think I may have found a way to work around the bug of my characters ignoring their orders and blindly charging in and attacking the start of every fight. It seems that if I unpause the game for about a second, then pause again, I can issue orders that they will actually follow, such as throw grenades or use force powers.

I also finally settled into my Jedi Guardian Brigantia, and plan to finish the entire game with her. She just got her lightsaber, and wow, I have never had a Kotor character who could rack ass like her. She is throwing out 100 points of damage and change every round.

Darth Gillette

Visas - proof the Dark Side has lip gloss!

Our heroine

A hammerhead ship

Brigantia and her boys

Bao-Dur doing acrobatics

This time out I am finding I am liking Bao-Dur best of all the companions. In my previous plays I never really grasped that he is meant to be fight unarmed, and tried giving him weapons and was just disappointed. But this time out I am letting him Kung Fu his way through the game, and he is awesome! Bao-Dur's Charged Armor really helps as well, since he cannot wear pretty much every suit of armor in the game. Most of all though, I am really warming to his personality and backstory. I can feel Brigantia really drawn to him due to their shared experience of the Mandalorian War. Something neither of them wants to talk about, but at least can see that the other understands all too well. I can feel a powerful - even if unspoken - friendship there.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Dec 4 2015, 08:20 PM


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Acadian
post Dec 3 2015, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Dec 2 2015, 05:42 PM) *
Eeep! It's Serana with a light saber! biggrin.gif

So nice to see you enjoying another game, and that you've been able to create a character for this one that suits you. Good luck to Brigantia! smile.gif



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