@ BSD-IES et al - Suggestion, if I may, for future possible contests. While the rules for entering and judging read quite clearly to me, I;'ve noticed that at least one other time entrants have become confused or unclear on the hows of the judging. Perhaps a description of HOW things will be judged could be put out to prevent possible future misunderstndings.

****
As for the way things were judged, I think we all need to remember that none of these people are professional writers and that judging is/was subjective (ie- uindividual opinions and how the words moved them). They also all have thier own personal lives and having them go through thier groups of stories in just one month is a feat I certainly would not want to have to do. They did a damn good job with what time they had I think

I was wondering, for word count, were words such as a an, & the counted? I know they aren't when selling one's news story to papers and such. As for grammar and spelling, well it wasn't in the rules that those things would or wouldn't be looked at or taken into consideration.

If the judges are willing, they could probably PM those who ask about their rankings so that those people might see where they ended up. Personally, I don't care where I ended up as it's enough to know that a few others at least glanced at my story. I'm considering putting it up in the regular story area for potential constructive criticism. (btw, I ignore "it sucked because it sucked" commentary )


@ 0rimus - Keep writing!!!!! Post your work on the forums that have areas for fan-fic. You'll get better each time you put pen to paper. The way you went about with the research for your story was fantastic. Keep it up and you'll go far. (uhm, no I haven't read your story yet. still working on the smaller ones)


Still hoping that a poetry contest is next cause I suck at poetry
Now, no more quibbling pretty please? Or they'll lock this thread sooner rather than later.

*bows* Thank you Chiglet. I'm working on slow-moving sequel, so I might post it here.

P.S, It's soooooooo nice to have infinite time to write.

Well, that sucks...I wasn't bothered I didn't win...AT ALL.

That list bums the hell out of me, though...

Ok, but I'm going to ask you something I also asked Redsrock, would you have felt better about it if your story had been listed as 8th place? Would you have felt better about it if we had used a grading scale and your story had only gotten a 2/10 for example? I'm not saying it would have scored as low, but please ask yourself this, if your story had ended higher, would you have perceived the system still to be as flawed and unfair as you do now?




Are you speaking here about the fact that the list was posted? Or about the system again? While I'm always in favor of free speech, and always allow criticism, and against what you apparently think, would not ban anyone from this forum for it, I hope in time you'll be able to accept this as it is, and move on.



As you probably figured by now, I too judged the long story category, and if you're interested I'll tell you my thoughts on your story, though perhaps that would be better left to a pm.




Well, apart from the actual point giving system, we had, or BSD had, mentioned earlier in this thread what we would be looking at. To be honest, I think that's far more important to know when you're entering in a competition then knowing how the judges judge amongst themselves. Though that's just my opinion.



Thank you



I'm the one who judges all the stories on word count, and to be honest, I let Microsoft word (do I get a fee for mentioning it's name or do I have to pay Microsoft for it? ) do all the work for me here. That's the standard; Microsoft's standard word count. If that either includes or excludes & and the likes, I'm not entirely certain, I used it simply to make sure there was one standard, and of course so I wouldn't have to count all the words myself



Well, if any writers for the long story category would want it, I wouldn't have a problem with sharing what I thought about the story. I'll pm them it of course. So if anyone's interested, drop me a pm or mention it in this thread, and I'll pm it.


Lastly, reading over this thread I'd like to apologize, I made the call to post the entire lists of results on the forums here without consulting any of the other judges, and in hindsight, I don't think I would do it again. Not because I'm afraid of criticism or for "covering something up" but more because I think some of the things that have been discussed in this thread, might have been a lot better off discussed in private.

I'd like to know Alex. I don't care if it's in this thread or PM, (in fact I'd prefer the thread, that way others besides me can learn from my mistakes). I'd also like to know where I placed in your set. You can just tell me my number, in case the others don't want their ranking known or whatever.

There is an open Competition thread in Fan Fiction intended for people to comment on the stories in the Competition unofficially. Maybe now that the results are in I will bump it and maybe more people would like to comment there?

Really there were so many fascinating stories in the compatition that I do not mind who won it (especially as there are not any big cash prizes [admitted it would be fine to have a signed copy] ) so long as they were good reads.

I do hope there will be another competition and that even more people will enter.

It would be decent to see how each individual story did and what the judges were thinking of them (as happened last time) ... it is only courteous to those who have also put their reputations on the line by entering this Competition. If anyone is shy about this then they are not suitable as judges though they may be fine people otherwise.

Chiglet seems to have some fair points, but since literary appreciation is such a personal thing I prefer the rules to be relaxed and the opinions of the judges to be displayed. I am not so happy with trying to define 'requirements' too closely in a modder's environment as that interferes with a writer's natural development in a way that is too impersonal. And I do not want the rules to become more important than the writing.

Kudos to all the winners!!!!

I'd like to respond to these 2 points. Second one first. I agreed to judge the long story category, so I'm prepared to post my thoughts for those 8 stories. This will not be an in depth analysis, but will basically show what I thought to be the pro's and cons for each of them. That isn't a problem. However... as I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the judges for the medium section had to drop out at the last minute, so I ended up being one of the judges for that as well. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to write my thoughts on all 27 medium entries as well, I just don't have the time. I stepped in there to help out, so that the results wouldn't be delayed, pure and simple.

Which leads me to the first point you made. There is a thread by Raggidman for people who'd like to comment on the entries, or you could post your entries up bit by bit in the fanfic section and get feedback from people there. I know people have spent a lot of time and effort on these, and it's only natural to want to get feedback, so why not offer each other feedback? If you read a story and feel it should have done better, say so. The results only reflect the judges opinions, you could each offer your own opinions as well. If they don't match ours, that's fine. All opinions (judges or otherwise) are subjective.

Yeah, I think BSD summed it up nicely. It's not too much work writing up a small thing about 8 stories, but it's quite another thing to do it about 25+ stories, especially when you're only combining it with work, school, kids, a wife, girlfriend and whatnot.

Unfortunately, I don't think it will be possible to get such detailed reviews about each story.

I have to make my opinion here about the spelling mistakes!

Of course they shouldn't metter if it wasn't said they would. And of course I belive they didn't as long as it was a mistake like spelling letter with just one t and similar. But,


Of course that would matter! Because put it the other way. In the rules it was clearly said you have to write about the world in the TES universe not about the leet game 1337, OMG! And writing about the universe which is thousands of years before computers in a geek language just doesn't feel all right!


Exact the same point! Mentioning the deadra through out the whole story doesn't make you feel you are in the TES universe. Although everybody knows what was ment.

You said you feel like judges didn't even read your story. And what if the judges think that you have never played or seen a TES game? Not that for entering the competition you should, but it surely helps. Or they can even say you posess a cracked version of all titles in which daedra is actually spelled deadra.

I think that for every mature person the rules and everything done about the competition wass as it was supposed to be.

Take me for example, I finished second although as I roughly went through the entries am the only one makig the visual look of the story as well. Even if it was not said it was going to be rated, I did it and realy hope it didn't cause trouble to judges or gave me any extra points. It was just the way I felt that other day I started writing my entry ...

To BSD-IES and Alexander - Fair enough - courtesy gives way to practicality as required - and I will not have a go at you for stepping in at the last moment to save the day - that was very kind BSD-IES It won't change my mind generally about wanting to read what the judges were thinking though

For Orimus, I think you are very lucky to have got feedback. But I will say this: this is a writing competition and most of the terms thereof were open. If you couldn't be bothered or failed to take the time to go through your entry and correct every tiny little mistake then YOU are to blame. Really you have failed on the basis of one of the most elementary criteria to respect the competition. As in the other writers and the efforts they have made.

I suggest you read my story and tell me if you can find 1 single spelling or other gramatical error or weakness. There are a couple there, but hard to spot I think. I had not finished polishing when the deadline arrived = my bad.

Waaaiiit a minute, you think your story was better than mine Orimus, so you deserve special consideration? I assure you it was not Mine was hastily, but most carefully and purposefully thought through and written. I have have very strong and all positive feedback from some very hard to please, highly respected and professional people. So I know for a fact that my story was most excellent rofl. And two of the poems in my story are masterpieces - as in world class. But so what? If one or all of these judges had different taste what does world class actually mean? Not much use to me if the rest of the world takes 90 years to recognise the fact. Really, who cares?

Take the words of the late great Sir Stanley Matthews to heart. He was a great footballer when English football really meant something. During one match at half time he was approached by a journalist who asked how he felt about a brutal and scything foul that had taken him down just before the end of the half.

Sir Stanley replied: It doesn't really bother me, because I know that next time I will stroll past him.

Heh - now the guys at TR can say they were justified in calling me a big head, maybe I am, so what? But I hope I am not going to get into the habit of complaining - because that takes too much time, I don't have that much left and I have things to do. What you could do is write another story, write it brighter, darker, bigger, better and prove you are the best, and not me. One thing is for sure, this competition is all over and done with bar the yakking and shouting. Take care - raggidman

You may not have been talking to me specifically, but it's an open thread, so since you raise the subject...

There are a few things I would have picked up on, had I been proofing your story. Smooth for example is misspelt twice, and there's one instance of use of it's rather than its (for the possessive) I also noticed a few punctuation mistakes, and several complex sentences which I think should have been broken up by commas rather than just running on.

Picky? You betcha. All in all these are very minor things that barely affect the overall piece (which is very good, although not exactly the kind of story I personally would favour - we all have our own tastes, after all.)

Although there's nothing wrong in taking pride in a job well done, I just think you're coming over a bit cocky in your last post

Well gee I'm sorry. Sorry that no one's taken into consideration that I was UNABLE to have enough time to repair my story. I'm not illiterate, I've had above a college reading level since the fourth grade. I wasn't able to fix some of those problems for one big reason: I had to use my sisters computer. Right now, I'm on a Mac, which has Textedit (which sucks) but it won't let me save anything for some reason, it crashes my crappy Macintosh. So in order to type I had to get my sister to enter the password on her PC, and had to get off if she wanted to use her computer, which was all the time. I also couldn't type when she wasn't here, and since she's a college student, that's most of the time. I have a mild form of OCD, I caught all those mistakes and then some, but was unable to do anything. As with earlier on, with the judges, it seems like some of you haven't read my story, and are making MONSTEROUSLY PRETENCIOUS ASSUMPTIONS based solely on what has transpired in this thread. I wasn't lyinjg when I said I put more than 90+ hours of work in, but as far as acctually typing the story, I did that in about 3 hours. Most of you I'm sure, have your own PC, but alas, I have a Mac. And as for the whole, "You're lucky to have gotten feedback...", perhaps, but I wouldn't have gotten any if I hadn't made the previous posts

Explain that comment please. What do you mean, the judges didn't read your story?

Yeah, I've been travelling the past two days, and I've just returned and seen a lot has happened...

I'll be honest with all of you - my first reaction was total surprise and a bit of disappointment too since I wasn't expecting the results to be published till the 1st of June. Should this contest ever be organised again in the future I would strongly recommend picking a date and time that the results would be announced and sticking with it. Why? BECAUSE I'M READING THE STORIES STILL AND YOU'VE GONE AND SPOILED PART OF MY FUN! If it had been stated from the beginning "winners will be announced on the 25th of May" then I would have made it a point of reading more quickly, and I would have made sure that I had read all of the stories myself by that time. Now I'm too late.

My second reaction was even more surprise when I read the actual results of the category in which I had read the most stories (medium length). Before I go any further, please allow me to congratulate the winner. Now that's over, I regret I must share with you all that I SERIOUSLY disagree with the results. There were stories in this category that did not receive any points (not even in the post by Alexander that contained the extended rankings) that deserve at the very least some feedback. I am bewildered that "The Cursed
Sewers" received actual points and that the story with the gunpowder was not disqualified for its glaring anachronisms and many resemblance to the television series "Sharpe". It does not do justice to stories such as "Ripples in the Stream", "The Unsung", and "Dagothlivion" where an enormous effort obviously went in to creating an imaginative storyline (plusses to Dagothlivion), lore, and even creating stories around details in the game that would appeal to a true fan (plusses to The Unsung and to Ripples in the Stream).

Instead I see that "Tales of a Scaled Knight" with its imbalanced antagonists and zipping-into-space plot comes in sixth? The plot is so out there, even the protangonist forgets it by the end of the story. "Fall of the West" with its tiresome parade of unfamiliar proper nouns comes in second? "The Last Dance" which has no plot at all and hardly transcends the description of a duel comes in fourth? "Eyes of the Heavens" which has unbelievably incompetent assassins characters comes in fifth? And there is not even mention of "Ripples in the Stream", "Dagothlivion", "The Unsung" or "The King of Daenia"? Not even a single point? BOO I say. Again, I say BOOO!



I feel too strongly that things are not right to be polite at this point. I challenge the results and it is obvious to me one of the two following must be true: Either #1 there was no objective scoring process that was applied consistently for everyone or #2 there are criteria that have not been communicated (and should have been communicated) from the beginning in the form of guidelines to submitters.

"Dagothlivion" is a damn good story that succeeds in painting a human side to Ascended Sleepers and Ash Zombies. And has people using Cliff Racers for transportation! And barrels of water on the planes of Oblivion! For chrissake, how ingenious is that? To not award it even a single point is simply incorrect. One hundred times BOOOO to the judges.

No no, I believe I'm detecting three flaws in your post there.
First off, no one forced you to rush through a story in order for you to participate, you were welcome not to enter, or to enter in for instance the short story category where you only had to type 2500 or fewer words. No one forced you into the long story category. If the reviews you got there were less positive then you had hoped for, well that's unfortunate, but you choose to enter yourself. You say it took you 3 hours to type out the story and 90+ to think of it, well comparing that to some of the other stories which were likely typed out over weeks and thought out over many months or years even. Again, that did give the others a lot more time to type it out, and to create it, but again that was all your choice.

Two, if you're trying to imply that some of the judges who judged your category haven't read our story and were just guessing, then I'd like to ask you to stop with that reasoning while you're ahead. All of the judges are people who have been active in the Elder Scrolls community for a very long time in one form or another, some of them I've known for years, some I've known about for years. To even imply even one of them did not do this to the best of their ability, went in biased, or judges stories with any way of prejudice in any way shape or form, is as I see it questioning their integrity, and that is going too far.
If you disagree with the results, that's fine, not everyone has to like it, not everyone can like it, but to even imply your story was not read through, and thus questioning the integrity of the judges is a step over the line. And if you did imply that, then I believe you should apologize for that.

Number three, if you had asked for feedback, even without the whole disagreeing bit and the rest, you still would have gotten it. Like we've mentioned before in this thread, long story judges already posted bits and comments in the judges section, easy step from there to giving it to the author, so there would not have been any logic to not giving it.




Actually, I did post this in the guidelines page of the competition;
"6. The final results of the competition will be published before June 1st, but if possible, sooner."

I'd actually wanted to give the results even earlier, but as mentioned, due to a judge dropping out and a tie in a category, it took a while longer.



You know, I find it hard not to become sarcastic here, but I think I'll indulge myself for a single sentence here; "Wow, imagine that, two people read something and they have a different opinion of it, who would have guessed."

Even with a clear and objective scoring process, you'll likely never get the same results in any competition from all of the judges. Why? Because when it comes to judging something on "how much did you like the story" there's a very large window there for difference.

If a famous book is read by book critics, why do you think some would praise it into heaven and others might not like it too much, or might even give it a bad review? I mean they're all doing the same job aren't they? All supposed to look for exactly the same things shouldn't they? It's the same here. 3 judges per category, who read all the stories and then made a list of their top ten, taking into account things that were mentioned in several posts in this thread, and of course how much they personally liked the story. All of that combined led to the scores you've seen. I'm sure if I'd read the short or medium sized stories, I might have come up with a list very different from the lists of the judges who did it now. And I'm sure had you or Redsrock or Orimus been a judge, you might have chosen lists also very different from ours. That is to be expected.




On a general note, a few of you have already expressed issues you have with the system used for judging, or have expressed feelings that you think your story or other stories should have been ranked higher. I have no problem with such expressions, if you'd care to voice something, please do so, be it good or bad.
However, as you can read earlier in this thread, I will not allow personal attacks on either specific judges or judges in general. Questioning their integrity is NOT an option in this thread. I can honestly say, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I know for certain each judge has judged to the best of their ability, in complete fairness and without any prejudice in any form whatsoever. Posts expressing views otherwise will not be tolerated. Voice protests all you want to, but do not claim someone was biased against you as it's both improper and completely incorrect.

Now, carry on.

I acctually agree with the long catagory placement, (though I really think We are merely shadows should have gotten higher). Also, I've been working on this story in my mind for well over seven years now, and the 90+hours was physical (swordfighting, smoking old pipe tobacco, hiking) and informational reasearch for the sole purpose of the story. And yes, it was my choice to write, and to chose the long catagory despite my handicap. But I could no more shorten this story than sever my own leg. This is also the only TES story I'm fully intersted in; I easily could've put some POS in the short catagory, but why would I do that if I don't even care what I'm writing about? I cared about Heraldry and Heretics, so I wasn't going to let the story suffer, even if the grammar did. I also don't question the jugdes intergrity, it's just that I realize when you are required to read something you tend to just read it, as opposed to READING it. If that makes any sence. I don't blame them thought. It seems like the judges were short on time is all. I'm not questioning thier end results, just saying that, maybe, it'd have been easier/more conclusive if they had more time. And I congradulate you on doing as well as you did with the time you gave yourselves... now if only someone would say the same of me.

Ok, Orimus, I've agreed with most of everything you've said, except that last thing there. Alexander and BSD I know have congratulated everything and have thanked everyone for particpating and writing stories, more than once. And that's besides the point, you shouldn't have to be congratulated to feel good. You should feel good because you wrote the story, not because someone left feedback, said "thank you", or whatever.

@ BSD and Alexander: I'd like to go ahead and apolgize for my actions over the past day and a half. Though I still stand by EVERYTHING I've said, I could have said it more professionally, and not as rude. My apologies...

I'm not so much as asking for a congradulation or anything. I just would like people to understand my constraints, and factor this in when they blatantly insult me with no real constructive purpose. I don't need any special notation, I know my story was good, as i've been saying lately: "I've made a diamond in 3 hours, no matter how flawed it is, it is still a diamond."

But you keep reffering to that. That's what I'm saying...

I'm afraid, looking over this thread, I don't see anyone "insulting" you. Perhaps you'd care to point out who did so and where? Offer constructive criticism, criticize, perhaps, but insulting is something very different

The only insult I can imagine you believe you received is that in my final list (which by the way you kept demanding to know) you came 8th. Is that an insult? No. As for the "I just would like people to understand my constraints, and factor this in" comment, that doesn't wash. It was a competition, where your story was judged against the other entries. It may well be that the other entries didn't face your constraints. Who knows? We could only judge based on what we were given to read, circumstances behind that have no bearing whatsoever. Finally the diamond comment. I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't. As before we were comparing the entries against one another, so I could argue that we had 8 diamonds to compare. How brightly each one shone was the deciding factor.

Check the Competition thread I have put there for you Orimus. When I have finished I will have reviewed every story in the competition there - you will get some new thoughts perhaps (just be sure to remember that my story is incomparable ) and I have far tougher stuff to deal with than you - both equipment and clearly life-wise - so what? It's not a handicap race - or I would win by every judge's tally hands down - trust me.

To my favorite proof reader Jordy - thanks. That's great. Some to the point feedback at last. Sorry, but I will correct the punctuation if needed, look at sentance lengths and compare them with the new correections I have already made - see my thread in the writing forum. But as for writing smoothe - that stays. It is a poetic modern and ancient alteration of that word that gives sought for connotations and intentional. That one is not a spelling mistake. Do not mistake the word smoothe for the word smooth. Just accept it and try to feel with it - imagine what I meant if you will.

As for the way I come accross in that post, that is for my friend Orimus, the up and coming writer in the hope that it will set him back on his heels a bit more and take stock of what he is up to. They are some of the thoughts others have made claer to me and that I have had of my own work - everyone has them an dusu we keep themn hidden. I also have total despair, this will never be good enough thoughts, and I take them, throttle them and put them in the dustbin where they belong - or I could not write ... gtg - later

Each judge is different and as such, has different thought processes on how to judge and what to look for. While certain things are listed in the rules, other, sub-conscious catalysts also played a role, I am sure.

We are sorry the rules and scoring criterion were not tailored to your liking, but there is really no way we could guard against that effectively without consulting deeply with every author. That is, of course, completely unfeasible. If you would something to be different for the next contest, please make an organized, clear-headed post, neatly listing contested parts and suggested ways of improving them. I'm sure Alex will take them into account for the next contest, should there be another.

Also, I'd like to take this time to say that, as judges, we acknowledge you don't care about our personal lives in regards to judging the entries, and would like you to acknowledge that we don't care about your personal lives in regards to writing said entries.

We judged the entries as we saw them, that is, the .doc files we received. Nothing more, nothing less.

I've kept an eye or two on the whole process from a safe distance, and I can assure you that all of the judges (except for the one that dropped out) put a lot of efford into this. I understand if people get upset with the rating of their work, that's why Buddhists don't like competitions in general. But please keep a civil tone and do not resort to personal attacks or completely silly speculation about ulterior motives, or worse, negligence or lazyness on the side of the judges.

It's rather unfair to these guys who have put a lot of time into this and I assure you we will not stand for it.


Also, if you decide to piss them off, they might not do something like this again. Something to think about.

And that is as it should be, and as it is with every contest I've come across. And something I explained to someone, who shall remain anonymous, who insisted the only way his story would get the recognition it would deserve, is if he were allowed to write down a list of tips, hints and explanations on how his story should be read and other such things.

It just doesn't work that way, your story should be sufficient on it's own, and other things should not have to be taken into account.


And I'd like to second what Haplo said, well not everything but his mention of us being very much open to good solid constructive tips on how to do such a thing next time. Any such tips posted in here would definitely be taken into account next time. Though of course it would be a good idea to keep in mind that you're dealing with judges who don't do this for a living, and are therefore to an extent, limited in their time.

Alex I applaud this initiative - I see it as something great and good and I would love for it to be repeated. But there should be deadlines, concrete ones, both for the submitters and for the judges. Please, I ask you in the future to make these concrete.



Alex, and stargelman, I am not sure to what degree your recent posts are directed at my lengthy screed, but I will assume for a moment that they are. Alex you write that you know "for certain each judge has judged to the best of their ability". I have no problem with the "to the best of" part of your sentence. For the record, I would like to say it's wonderful that they have been fair, and should be praised for doing their work without prejudice or compensation. I do have a problem with the "their ability" part of your sentence. I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions.

Alex your sarcasm is lost and your logic is flawed. Consider, if you please, the Michelin Guide for restaurants. The criterion there is not "did the critic enjoy the meal" which is such a subjective criterion it is laughable to even consider since some people like Coquilles St.-Jaques, for instance, and others don't. Even the notion of having a single criterion is ridiculous. Instead, what you get in a Michelin guide is single score that is the result of a combination of subscores. I would recommend that, for future instalments, Chorrol would do something similar. Examples of CONCRETE criteria could be: (one) originality (two) coherence of plot (three) meaningfulness to the world of TES (four) imaginative power (five) believability of the characters etc. etc. etc... This would have benefits for the submitters of the stories and also for the judges, and it would make the process a bit more transparent. If a clear set of criteria existed from the beginning, I am sure that this thread would be many pages shorter.

And yes, while we are all rushing to defend the judging and the judges, bear in mind that it won't matter if people lose interest and nobody submits any more stories. It's thanks to the writers, not the judges, that there's anything to see on this website in the first place.

And I will say it again it is a shame that Dagothlivion receives no points and no mention. The fact this remains so does Chorrol no credit. Lest somebody gets the wrong ideas, let me be clear - I am not the mysterious bqggz. I did not write this story. Yes, I wrote a story and submitted it to the competition. When I read Dagothlivion I felt humbled. I hope the person that wrote this story reads this post - Baggz you have written a fine piece and you have a fine creative mind. The results of this competition do you no justice, so just ignore them.

It's probably worthwhile to point out that even with "concrete" criteria like this, any judging process is inherently subjective.

Everyone who competes in anything and doesn't win feels like they got "robbed". Only on the internet do those people have the cheek to complain about it to the faces of the people who worked so hard to make the competition happen. Put a mature face on it, and try again next time.

Well said kementari. Seriously, by the Azura, paragenic how old are you?



No judges, no competition, no entries => no fun! It's always thanks to both!

I unterstand all the dissapointment in participants who did not recieve the desired scoring, but people everything can be said in a mature way and not with such sharp words. I wonder who of you complaining would dare to say same things in person. Especialy in a week or so, when your blood cools off a bit.

Oh? On what are you basing that? On the fact that the judges choices differed from your own?

LOK, OK. Glad you didn't feel my post was insulting to your work or anything. I suppose I'm something of a grammar/spelling Nazi, though I think that in creative (as opposed to academic) writing it's fair to play with certain grammatical rules in the pursuit of a particular style or effect. An obvious example being fragmented sentences, which are - as MS Word never stops chiding me - grammatically incorrect; but to insist on complete sentences all the time is quite a heavy restriction on creativity.

I can't say I've ever come across the word "smoothe" before, but I'll take your word for it, as I take your point that it's included in order to create a particular effect.

As for the competition results in general, the biggest surprise to me was that "Barricade" didn't do better. I've read this one before on ff.net and was very impressed. I thought it was a dead cert. for a high ranking, if not top.

Not sure really what I could say about my own baby...it was ultimately ranked joint ninth out of 27 entries, which isn't bad at all. I'm very pleased with my writing and use of language in it, but I realised from the start that competition-wise, it was at a disadvantage for two reasons: firstly, it's based directly on an in-game questline, and while I believe I fleshed it out and put my own mark on it, it couldn't really have garnered points for an original plot. Secondly, it's written from the POV of someone very keen on Lucien Lachance - what I had in mind while writing was a kind of cult of personality - so while I tried to avoid slushiness like the plague, or making Lucien sweet or nice...if you don't like him quite a lot, maybe it's not really going to speak to you. Essentially, I wrote it for myself as a kind of catharsis after being traumatised by the ending of the Dark Brotherhood quests.

All in all I'd say I'm satisfied with my place; obviously I'd like to have done better, but wouldn't everyone? (except the winners, of course)

I guess what it all comes down to for us all is that every story sets out to achieve certain things - you can't fulfill every possible literary goal in one story - and what you're doing in your story just may not be what a judge really digs, for want of a more eloquent word

I made a point of at least skim-reading each entry, and I'm happy to say that there wasn't one I'd consider really bad, although there were a couple of people who obviously didn't have English as a native language and were struggling with it. But I've seen some fanfic competitions based on a very famous game character where said character was butchered beyond recognition, and most of the prose was just laughable. I think the overall quality here was good.

When I said blatant in my last post, I did so out of annoyance. Alas, despite my stoicism I let my feelings get the best of me. The insults I recieved were veiled, or maybe, unintentional. But in short, everyone is calling me lazy for my grammarical errors. This also rectifies my other post: I didn't want special praise for my lack of time, I just want people to get off my back about it. Normally this would be constructive, but my errors are known to me, and of little consiquence anyway. People arn't outrightly calling me a moron, but

"For Orimus, I think you are very lucky to have got feedback. But I will say this: this is a writing competition and most of the terms thereof were open. If you couldn't be bothered or failed to take the time to go through your entry and correct every tiny little mistake then YOU are to blame. Really you have failed on the basis of one of the most elementary criteria to respect the competition. As in the other writers and the efforts they have made.

I suggest you read my story and tell me if you can find 1 single spelling or other gramatical error or weakness. There are a couple there, but hard to spot I think. I had not finished polishing when the deadline arrived = my bad."

Pretty insulting I'd say. I explained my inability to have done more, but I'm still getting heat for it. I don't want a congrats, and if it sounded like I was hinting at it then I sorry for the misunderstanding. I've remained calm and logical throught this whole process, and now I want out. No more quotes, be it to agree or condemn me further. I want out. All I asked for, a little feedback, I got, and I thank the judges for that. This should've ended at Chiglets post, but I kept getting dragged back into it to defend myself from grammar Nazis. I will respond if someone wants clarification on something I said previously, but otherwise, leave me alone and GB2 4chan. Acctually, scratch that, you ask me a question, but if it's too much BS, I just going to ignore it. "To err is human, to forgive is divine."

I fear I am misunderstood. It is because I care about this competition and would like for it to be organised again in the future, hopefully in a form where there's less panic at its conclusion, that I am making all these remarks. If nothing changes, I do not think I will invest the hours and hours of time that I've put in to be in this past competition. Actually, yes I did participate in this event and the investment of my personal time was significant. At a certain level I echo the sentiment of a previous poster that it does feel like something of a slap in the face, especially when you consider how the previous competition was organised. But out of respect to the organisers, I haven't even mentioned this yet.





I believe what you are seeing there is the expression of strong opinions. Perhaps I've misunderstood what "sharp words" mean but I believe I have been proper in the tools I have used to express them. Your suggestion I am acting like a immature, bitter loser, however is incorrect.





Hello, BSD-IES!

No, that would be silly. The source of my concerns are twofold: First, I sense that with criteria (that I believe someone with more experience would be able to judge as semi-objective) we would see very different choices being made. Things like coherence of plot, consistency and believability of characters, or originality, if taken into account, would certainly not give the same results. But, as I've learned, this doesn't seem to be the point and that is my second concern:

If Shakespeare himself were to descend among our midsts and write a masterpiece about Oblivion, and of the three judges, none liked plays, Shakespeare would walk away from this competition with zero points and zero feedback. And frankly, I think this is wrong. There should be more to the judging than the pure relative amusement of three people who are protected by anonymity and free from the need to justify their decisions.

When I entered this contest, I saw on the forums that another contest for short stories had been organised just the month before. Every (let me repeat) EVERY single story received some constructive comments. Perhaps I was naive to believe the competition would be organised consistently and that this would be repeated.

I understand that by criticising the organisation of this competition, I might not be making myself popular around here, but these things need to be said. A less-subjective judging system and more feedback are what are needed to take this forward and let this evolve into something more. If these changes are not made, this will stay a mom & pop forum with competitions involving amateur writers and amateur judges.

Excuse me.

As to the "mom & pop"ness of this competition:

As I am given to understand it, the judges were prominent figures on the most popular Elder Scrolls fansites on the internet, as well as one employee of Bethesda.

If they didn't have the collective time to organize helpful feedback for each and every person to offer a submission, that is entirely their prerogative, and not indicative of sloppy or mismanaged judging in any way, shape, or form.


Have you ever competed in any writing contest before? Or, for that matter, any contest? The judges for national writing competitions don't give feedback to the losers. Judges for intramural diving competitions do not sit down with each diver to go over what they might have done better. Improv theater competitions, dance competitions, and music competitions - the judges do not give individual feedback to everyone who participates.


Where exactly do you get off, implicating that volunteer judges for a for-fun competition like this should be giving individual feedback to the winners, much less the losers?

Show some respect.

Kementari,
I'm sorry, but I must disagree to some small extent, though I am loathe to enter another arguement, alas, I feel I must. I've competed in many organizations of various sizes: karate, fencing, band, chorus, percusion, poetry comtests, swim contests, biking contests, welding contests, artistry of all sorts, story comps. (besides this one), xbox live (that doesn't really count though), and tons of other crap. I've come in last place very often (or close to it) and I almost always have gotten a special little chat with the superior of the event, even in karate with a class of over 300 participating members, and not just a few words either, but a whole conversation on what i did wrong, and what i can improve. And in the few cases I wasn't approached by a superior, I went and asked one, as I had to do in this comp. I do agree that Paragenics post was a little rough. But hey, I asked, and i recieved, so if you really want feedback, or like me entered for the sole purpose of critique, then follow suit:
"I'd like a PM, I'd also like to see all eight entries stacked against one another, not just the top five"
Normally I wouldn't quote myself (cuz' contrary to popular belief, I don't have a big head), but I think amount of politeness vs. urgency was just right. Maybe with the politeness lagging a bit, but at that time I was quite honestly pissed, but refrianed from showing it as much as I wanted to. (Ok, maybe I do have a big head

Yes, I "got off" at the short story competition of March 2008, on Chorrol.com! This is exactly what happened, and I am scratching my head as to why they broke with this established pattern. I am also confused by your reaction - before entering the April 2008 competition, did you not see the process of the March 2008 competition?

You imply that I lack respect because I took the time to learn about the way contests on forum were organised in the past. Your analysis is flawed.

Ok, I like someone else (too "lazy" to look for post/can't find it) have cooled down further, but still stand by everything I said. I tried to stay on the line, not right-wing or left-wing (but I didn't do a good job thougth, lol). So now that I'm all zen again, I'd like to propose ideas to both the judges and writers of a very constructive nature, that I'm sure (god I hope...) that everyone (mostly) can agree upon:

Judges:
1. Give more time to us, and unto thy selves.
2. Be prepared to critique the writings, wether by memory, or even just some joted notes, it may be arduous, but I don't think it'd be worse than this thread.
3. Solid, unflinching rules clearly stated (you guys did a pretty good job though)
4. I'd like to be able to say something about the second hottest item of debate, the end results/judging in general, but I can't. I've put myself in your guyses shoes, thought about judging, my opinion, and people questioning it. There is no set bar in writing, I know people who hate Eragon, and those who love it, it's a matter of preference the only sure-fire way to be a better writer is spelling and grammar, which is more than likely the reason i lost, lol.

Writers:
1. Don't throw out crap just to see if you can win with it, (I don't think anyone did this though)
2. Obviously, write about something you care about (goes with #1)
3. Follow the rules to the letter, even (if you get the benefit of talking with the judges) if it's only hinted at.
4. Don't cut corners, use common sense, even if you're told something won't count against you, you'd be better off fixing it anyway (cough...cough, damn grammar...) better safe than sorry, I speak from experience.
5. Don't rush it. Unless you're a greedy ho, who only wants the prize, you might be better off holding it back, or using a reserved story. I should've held my story back and filled all the holes/made repairs, and submitted it here, where I'd have gotten just as much, or even more critique than from the contest.

I might come up with more later. Seems like (I've got a big head) I've satiated both sides= you both got some constructive critizism. Now go and make mirth upon the provinces of beautiful Tamriel!

No, I imply that you lack respect because you seem to believe these individuals owe you something. Regardless of what happened in the past, if these judges a) didn't promise you feedback and b) aren't seeing any money from you, they don't owe you a thing.

It is your comprehension, not my analysis, that is flawed.

Oh, while I'm at it, and since I've gone from depressed and angry to somewhat joyful, I'd like to offer my unique help. I thought about posting this in the help with writing thread, but it's not quite the same subject. Alot of TES is about fighting, and I have alot of experience (specifcally swords and fist-fights) in this area. I also go on "survival" trips alot, akin to Man vs. Wild, Survivorman, for those who want to make their TES stories more realistic in that regard. PM me, or mayhaps I'll just start a new thread...

Hm, I'm not sure your example really applies, there's quite a time difference between eating a meal, and reading a book. And above any time related concerns, let's not forget the fact that those critics, be it food or literature critics, are paid professionals who can take all the time in the world to read something 5 times etc.



I beg to differ, I'd say it's a group effort by both authors and judges. As to a single story, again as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, and as others have mentioned as well, there's always a chance that some people will love a story, and some others judging it on the same criteria will hate it. That's actually the content of my sarcasm and with respect, I don't think it is flawed.

Though I like what BSD said before even better, we had to pick a winner, so if all the stories are considered to be diamonds, which many of them are, then we had the hard part of selecting the most flawless diamond of them all. Doesn't mean the rest are rubbish, just that in the eyes of the jury, they were not as good as the winners.




Ah, but you're missing, or not including something there. The past competition also had three judges, but only 8 entries, which all had to be fewer then 2000 words. At max that brings it to 8*2000 = 16000 words. That's nothing compared to this new competition where we had 60+ entries. Not to mention the fact that many fans choose to comment and review and criticize those 8 stories of that last competition and very few fans choose to criticize their peers stories in this competition.

So comparing the two and judging them with the same criteria, is not possible IMO.




Unfortunately, such is the nature of the internet. We can't hold it against anyone though, I mean we knew what we were getting into when we choose to judge the competition




Yeah, you know you're right, this was an amateurish competition, with amateur judges (well most of them) and amateur writers (well most of them), but everyone knew that going in. You knew before you entered who the judges were, you knew (if you know them or had contacted them) that they were amateurs, willingly giving up their time for the community to judge this competition. Boy, I hope the ones who haven't posted here won't read this thread, I don't think I'd ever be able to convince them to sacrifice their precious time again to judge a competition when the entrants appear so demanding and yes, ungrateful. Well some of them anyway.

We can make something more professional, by hiring professionals. But unfortunately, our budget only goes so far, and while we were all very thankful to Bethesda for providing us with such cool prizes, I somehow doubt I would have been able to convince Gstaff to hire 9 professional story critics, as convincing as I may be.

I think my diamond needed another grind lol. Oh dear... I already hate doing this, especially since I've done it a couple time... Oh wait! I asked people to stop quoteing me, oh snap! I changed my mind, quote/insult/comment away! I'm too valuable to this arguement, j/k. No one was quoting/saying anything about the points I've brought up, so I went and assumed that people weren't reading my crap again. Good thing I luked moar. Whew! *wipes brow* Now seriously, the things I brought up are pretty good................ right? I'm now ASKING for quotes, and in turn for punishment, I was pretty good when I was ticked off, and now I'm level headed, so bring it. *equips Umbra* *smirks*

For emphasis.

Seriously, kids. Take a step back. This kind of overreaction is the sort of thing that will guarantee no future competitions.

For the sake of those of us who didn't get to participate and may wish to in the future, I ask any judges reading here to disregard the comments of those who clearly don't understand what it is they're saying.

You know, if I weren't such a nice guy....

*PAH-CHOW!*
*Looks down at bullet-hole wound incredulously, then at Umbra in hand*
"How... could.. I..."
"Where's your nine now?"

Lol, SO glad I played middle of the road now, dodged the "bullet" there. Never demand which isn't yours by right. The verdict of these judges is the sole opinion of the judge, owned by that judge, and only by that judge. I'll admit to a little initial ingratitude, but never demanded anything, and the ingratitude wasn't very severe anyway.

*Pulls bullet out of chest, heals wound, points to the side*
"It was him!"
*Runs into the woods while Kementari pulls the slide of thier nine back-*
"I pity da foo who ain't 'spectin' the judges"
*PAH-CHOW!*

Rules? Though I do not like 'regimentation' I kinda like these categories - as guides to judging and scrutinising ... not as rules - because again we get back to the subjective.

As for Dagothlivion I have to agree with paragenic there in spades - it was excellently written, inventive and most entertaining all the way through - more so than most of the others in the category on any set of standards and I cannot see how it was missed. It employed some techniques that I used in my short story about spies like us - and I wish that I had written Dagothlivion.- I would be honored if the author pops up and says he was inspired by my work, but not surprised if he got his inspiration through other reading or stuff! It totally took me by surprise when I read it, and I felt that I was almost playing the game and discovering new stuff. It's quality as an entertaining piece and cunning penmanship is so obvious the kindest construction I can put on this result was that none of the judges actually read it.

Since I have not yet discovered the list of all the positions of all the entries I have no idea how far down this it was, but I have no doubt that a great disservice was done to this fine piece. It seems that it has been unjustly consigned to Dagothlivion. :nods:



Mr Orimus since you have changed your mind I shall apply your own analogy: if an uncut diamond is presented in a competition for jewellers vs a selection of highly polished and well-cut gems, no matter the potential quality of the uncut gem it aint gonna win ... and should not do so. Forget the spelling Nazi thing - it seems that spelling was not such an important consideration - but if you present an uncompleted work you have to expect to lose points for that as it is a competition for the best, not the best but we are going to give bonus points to people for not completing their work for whatever reason.

What you might have done if it was not finished to your satisfaction, as was pointed out, is wait for the next competition or simple post it as a story on the Forums. Who knows what might have happened.

I have found Alexander's post now. Wish all that had been in a separarte pinned and locked thread as it has sorta been buried. And it would be nice to include the list of the judges names in such a new thread as they arre all public domain.

That is out of order. I'm getting really bloody annoyed that people are casting aspersions on the character of the judges simply because our choices don't match theirs.



What the hell do you think we judged them on? Let me give you a clue:

Plot
Characterisation
Dialogue
Writing Style
Language
Pacing
and finally Personal Enjoyment.

Wouldn't give the same results indeed. Yet again you mean that we are unsuited to judge, whilst you are. Your opinion being clearly more important than ours.



As compared to what? Professional writers being marked by professional judges? Excuse me, I'll just get on the phone and see if Philip Roth wants to write a fanfiction for an online competition, and get Michael Chabon to come and judge it. Perhaps your expectations are totally unrealistic.

This is a fansite - by fans, for fans. Perhaps you need to remember who the audience is for the games. That same audience are those who are both writing and judging. If you want to write a sci-fi piece that's judged by professional writers of the standard you demand, perhaps you'd be better off at a website designed for that purpose, like Critters. Be warned though, they won't accept fanfiction.

BSD-IES - THAT WAS NOT INTENDED AS PERSONAL CRITICISM. Nor as casting aspersions on anyone's character. What it is is criticism of a result. Now I had thought that was legitimate. and if you wish to criticise my judgement on this matter that is fine with me = judge not lest ye be judged. So that means I believe I have to take your criticism to heart also because I have been judging the judges' decisions. :shrugs: And I have done. I was shocked that you felt that way.

Natch I believe that what I said was correct But I feel for you in the hard task that you have bravely undertaken - and that is :uh ohh: not over yet. I can imagine that some of the judges actually felt sorry that they felt they could not give more 'points' to some of the wonderful stories. But I also did not see any story in the category that could compare with Dagothlivion. That is what my (admittedly hurried as I was on the way to hospital for more tests) comment meant.

I also believe that you should all be willing to deal with the criticism that is going to come your way, not least because everyone's a critic, and save outrage for when people are intentionally going over the line to cause harm to you, rather than imagining they are against you. I know I am not, and I do not believe for a moment that paragenic is either. Hell, I cannot tell you how many times I have felt angered by things people have said to and about me that I felt were unjustified - only to learn later that they saw their statements in an entirely different light :shrugs: - we really need a :shrugs: button on this board - ooops, another criticism.

my 10cents - now ban me if you still think I was being deliberately damaging - because if it was not a mistake I deserve to be banned.

"the kindest construction I can put on this result was that none of the judges actually read it."

Those were your words, and that's what I took umbrage to. Sorry, but how else could I possibly read that? Of course we read it, we read all the entries, and several times each. Most of the comments you've made have been fine, hell some have been very useful. You've encouraged people to give each other feedback in the other thread, which I think is a terrific idea. You're not the first person to suggest (look back a couple of pages if you don't believe me) that the judges didn't read the stories. Do you honestly think that any judge who has spent time carefully reading each and every story, weighing up the pro's and con's of each isn't going to take offence at that?

You have to look at the difference between a statement of fact and reaching out for words to describe bafflement. Far better in my opinion that you make a mistake than that you don't have a clue if you see what I mean? This is not saying that you made that mistake, but rather that it would be preferable.

Thing is you accepted the job of referee - so you knew people would say you were blind. Just as you have effectively told everone who did not get first place overall or your vote as first place that their stories were not as good as another story. So they kick up a bit. In this case I was totally turned off by the name Dagothlivion. And Dagoths? I felt I had enough of them. I thought it was going to be another re-iteration of the same old tale that so many other writers are repeating over and over. But wow! Reading this story blew away all my preconceptions and I saw paragenic was taking stick for being too critical in support of this highly talented writer, so I felt I had to support what he was saying on the matter of his assessment of the story which is so true that I feel the ref was blind. It does not mean that I or they are your enemy or wish you ill.

Maybe you missed the parody and irony and satirical elements in the story? De gustibus non disputandem? Someone suggested to me that the ending totally left him unmoved and that it is not possible to argue about taste, but that seems to be the only basis we have left to look at this on. What about was it really ES? Well it is really as much or more ES than almost all the other tales I have read here because it accepts the conventions of ES and yet presents something totally new. As if the characters do not have to prove they are ES-like. This was a story so totally immersed in ES that no reader could claim that it was from anything else for sure. After all, if the actors in Mournhold in the open air theatre had to put on on, what could a comedy about the Dagoth's be like? Bloody brilliant.

One thing that I have felt about this judging system - which is comparable to Olympic judging re Ice Skating and Diving - is that you can end up with an unfortunate winner who is no one's first choice. Oops, it happened. Also what can happen in such a small community is that the judges have read a writer's work so often that they become innured to its charms. Hell, there are so many problems with this kind of thing ...

Since you push it, unfortunately, I will not dispute that each individual judge did his or her best. .... think about that. If I were a judge I would have preferred to look at it the other way. But also please accept that such competitions are never truly fair. So I think it is better for the judges to take the time now to explain what they were thinking in some detail, if they can, simply because there are writers out there who are bound to feel bad as a result of the decisions when they actually were not necessarily inferior an dcan benefit from the judges feedback. I cannot force them to do so.

That is one reason that, if I can, I will continue to work on the 'your views' thread (remember I have been trying to read them all and I'm now trying to give feedback too) to give my views of each piece that I can, in the hopes that all those people whose stories I can empathise with will not feel left out, or that their work is less than it is. And please forgive me, but that is more important to me than the judges (however fair they tried to be) now.

Face it, I respect you more for your story 'A Beautiful Duel', and you guys (judges) generally more for the writing , modding, administrating etc that you do, than as judges. Now I can refrain from saying that, but then am I then doing both you and the author of that tale a disservice if I do not give you the same feedback that I give the writers. And who would believe what I say in future? Who will crit the critics This may be unfortunate if you intend to take up careers as professional judges But on the basis of that one story it is what I feel. :shrug: My approach is better that you, I and others get the chance to vent and explain ourselves - even if we make mistakes in doing so - than that we refuse criticism entirely and fail to improve our skills.

All this is the reason that unpaid judges are hard to find for this kind of competition.

The one thing I would change about all this is that all the info that came out bit by bit about the judging and results would have better been made available with the top placings. And there should have been more back up arranged so that people other than the judges were able to say: 'this is what happened'.

Like I said, the only comment I had a problem with was the one I previously quoted. I really like the fact you're trying to get people's opinions in the story thread, I think that's a really positive thing. I also have no problem with you or Paragenic thinking we made a mistake in overlooking a story you both feel was the best. I had a problem with the way it was being stated. Let me explain, then let's move on. This is what you wrote above:

"it was excellently written, inventive and most entertaining all the way through - more so than most of the others in the category on any set of standards and I cannot see how it was missed. It employed some techniques that I used in my short story about spies like us - and I wish that I had written Dagothlivion.- I would be honored if the author pops up and says he was inspired by my work, but not surprised if he got his inspiration through other reading or stuff! It totally took me by surprise when I read it, and I felt that I was almost playing the game and discovering new stuff. It's quality as an entertaining piece and cunning penmanship is"

If I stop it there, we have a nicely reasoned argument, disagreeing with the judges decision. We had our opinion, you have yours. Absolutely fine. I'm also sure that if the author reads it, they'd be delighted to see their story has had such an impact on you and Paragenic. Now Paragenic also employed a similar approach, praising the story (great), explaining why he thought it was a great story (wonderful). If he'd stopped there, nobody would have minded even a little bit. A conflict of opinions maybe, but nobody would object to that. We did object to the addition of this:

"I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions."

Comments like that, and suggesting the only reason a story was overlooked was that we couldn't be bothered to read it cross a line. The line between disagreeing with a decision, and explaining why (which you both did), to just insulting and calling into question the character and competance of people you don't know. Purely on the basis of the fact the story wasn't as well received by the judges as by the two of you. That's going too far. Disagree with our decisions all you want, but there is no need to make rude comments about the people who made the decisions.

I did not say: the judges did not read that story. To suggest such a thing is like saying 'this is' is the same as 'this is not'.

Also you are forgetting that there are many senses in which the phrase 'did not read' can be taken.

Thus it can be said: You can read a piece hundreds of times and still miss the sense of it = you did not read it. [edit: and please do not take offense at the wording. It is impersonal.]

It could be that this is a piece that for you is 'before your time' or something you are not yet prepared to understand or appreciate.

In Soho Square, London, England this weekend there was a TV show presentation. They hired a promo company to put up a Huge White Board, and had someone write in the Top Left in huge letters: 'Culture is ... '

They set up a camera pointing at the board, and encouraged passers-by to add something

Guess how many interpretations of that 2 word phrase there were at the end of two days?

Besides, I am not unhappy with the result of this exchange. Because I pushed the line you have given a far more personal view into what you were thinking, and doing - the whole process comes over as a more human ond personal one, and I am sure that will be appreciated by many of the writers. It's sound journalistic technique