Optional, but totally out of character for a supposedly honorable faction. It doesn't make any sense to have the Companions even connected to that type mission; if anything they should be attacking the thugs that are beating up shopkeepers.

I don't think Bethesda cared about realism or making sense, they just jammed stuff in there every which way and pointed to it like a kid pointing to their turd in the potty chair.

"Look what I made! Dwagons!"

It is optional, but only sort of. I think you can only have one radiant quest active. So unless you complete that "beat up person x" quest, you can never do any other radiant quests for the Companions.

Doing that quest/task made me feel worse than any of the Dark Brotherhood quests did; and worse - the shopkeepers liked me/Maxical till then. After that it was never the same.

I assume you're all referring to the Hired Muscle radiant quest for the Companions. I've never really had a problem doing that quest. Farkas tells you that the person in question has been causing trouble, and that you are under no circumstances allowed to kill said person. That makes you far more honorable than the Hired Thugs that are sent to teach you a lesson, but always go for the kill.

The werewolf thing is what I hate about the Companions. Werewolves should be a part of some sort of overarching quest line for Hircine, just like mALX said. I could even see it as a companion (no, I didn't intend that) to the Dawnguard quest line. I also hate the fact that, outside of Ria, no one in the Companions actually does anything!

Oh I agree with this, no doubt. Even during TG, I felt like bullying shopkeepers didn't really fit with the questline. Thieves are supposed to be underhanded and sneaky, not in your face, trying to badger you for money. My character who started that quest wanted to be a thef, but when it came to bullying shopkeepers, he was done.

Being hired to beat someone up as Companion works if the person they pick for you to pound on is someone like Olfrid or Idolaf Battleborn, who one might easily imagine are bullies. But when it is Danica Purespring or Carlotta Valentia? Sometimes it feels like I am supposed to beat up Mother Teresa...

The Werewolf thing is what always completely turned me off of the Companions too. It is the Werewolf guild, not the Fighters Guild. Not that I mind there being a Werewolf guild, but like you guys, it ought to be a pro or anti Hircine questline like Bloodmoon's main quest.


I felt that way too the one time I did the TG in Skyrim. I wanted to play a sneaky burglar, who picked people's pockets or slipped in through the window like the wind and stole the goods with no one the wiser. Not a cheap thug. In Oblivion's TG questline I really felt like a master thief pulling off the heist of the century. But in Skyland the TG just made me feel like common scum. I really hated how they expected you to frame that Dunmer merchant in Riften, and the Honningbrew Mead guy.

Those hired thugs are a carryover from Fallout 3; where depending on if your character was good or bad they got one of two factions trying to kill them whenever they are in the exterior Wasteland. It went over big, everyone loved it; so Bethesda stuck it in Skyrim.

If your character was too good, they wanted to teach you a lesson; too evil and they wanted to rid the world of you. It was exciting to have to watch out when you left a dungeon just in case they were lying in wait for you out there. (and if you had neutral karma you were not targeted).

They always carried a writ of assassination or contract to: "Kill Misa" (or whatever your character's name is).


BUT - In Fallout 3 you could also join one or the other of those factions to either become a thug and go out and kill "Goody two shoes" or to become a Regulator and clean up the Wasteland of evil people.

Either way, for each one you kill you get paid well.

And the Regulators had some honor to them, and camaraderie among themselves. It was like justice in the old west.

But I don't see an explanation like "causing trouble" being worthy of giving a beating to a local shopkeeper that you have to live beside and do business with in the future. It was a contrived way for Bethesda to stick fighting without killing into their game; which is something people have been asking for since at least Oblivion.

It isn't the fight I object to, but the lack of sense in where they stuck it in. They should have done it like they did in Fallout 3; where if you want to you can join a faction of thugs who beat people into submission to change their ways and earn some gold - your choice; (or added it to the Dark Brotherhood, that would make sense at least).

They did a much better job of adding in fighting without killing in ESO, imho. Some places you go to, a questgiver will challenge you to fight 3 of the members of their faction. (Like the drunken Nords like to brawl, etc).

You give it your best, but when they give up you have to stop immediately or the whole place will turn on you for assault. (I had to run twice on these for not stopping quick enough, but after you wait out your bounty you can return and finish the quest).

But you have the choice to take the quest, the NPC people WANT to brawl with you. There is nothing wrong/shamefull about it that way, it is just like a tougher version of sparring. I so much prefer that way of introducing brawling than just making the Player out to be a thug for hire within factions who shouldn't be doing any such thing.












Exactly how I felt in the Thieves Guild. Why wouldn't we just sneak in at night and steal the money, or rob their house while they were at work, why beat them up for money?

I remember the Armande in Oblivion telling the Player "We are Thieves, not the Dark Brotherhood." I guess in Skyrim the lines have become blurred a bit.

And like you, it was the last straw for me being a Thieves Guild member in Skyrim.












This is exactly what I've been trying to say, but SubRosa said it much better than I could. THIS!


Edit: And I had forgotten that the Honningbrew/Black Briar mead thing was connected to the Thieves Guild; but I remember being so disgusted with it; and never did do the quest. Why would something like that have anything to do with the Thieves Guild? It makes no sense that thieves would involve themselves that way.

I did love the Thieves Guild in Oblivion, and like you said - it felt like you were a master thief, not scum of Nirn. In Skyrim, the developers clumped every filthy low life quest they had into the Thieves guild line; so you did feel like scum instead of a master thief.

I didn't do the Dark Brotherhood questline at all in Skyrim; but have wondered if they did a better job with it than they did the Thieves Guild or if they dumped their guild of "Elite Assassins" into common thug murderers too.


The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are supposed to be coming to ESO, I am really interested in seeing what they will do with them.

I also got that impression. Getting furry under the full moon aside, the Companions just strike me as a bunch of blow-hards, big on talk, short on action. Granted the Fighters Guild in Oblivion had the same problem. They never seemed to leave their guild houses (except for Lum, who you could always see showing off his beefcake out back ).

The out-of-character stuff in the early Thieves Guild quests is something I put down to Maven's influence, rather than TG itself. You find out that Mercer and Maven were ... thick as thieves ... and it starts making sense.

I wish the quest line went further and eliminated Maven as well as Mercer, and I started making a mod to do that. But since it would need new voice acting, I moved on to mods that wouldn't.

I can see the point of hiding the werewolf connection from the applicant to the Companions, but I'd have preferred an option of not becoming one, even temporarily. I've only done that quest line once, and took the first opportunity to get cured. I also wanted to be able to force Aela to do the same, for completeness, but you can't.

The radiant quests to beat up citizens could probably be modded down to a more acceptable group of victims if someone chose them and created a formlist for it. Who votes for Nazeem as the only name on it?

Danica: “Something wrong, Ahlam?”
Ahlam: “Hmm? Oh, well... to be honest, I was just thinking of Nazeem. The gap between us seems to be widening. He is just so... self-absorbed.”
Danica: “Now, now, my friend. You must look on the bright side. If soldiers storm the city, there’s a good chance your husband may get killed.”

Not exactly Mother Teresa.



That's how I see it too. Mercer's leadership has driven the Thieves Guild into the depths of thuggery to the point that they are no more than strong-arm apes in the employ of Maven.

Having met Nazeem, I am sure Mother Teresa would say the same thing!

Yeah, I was impressed in the beginning of the Companions quest when they sent you in with Farkas and he could actually fight; you did not have to keep him alive like you were the only one capable when you just joined. (and I really thought I was going to love that questline when they held that awesome ceremony). I really did like that you were sent out with others who could actually stand up for themselves.

That was one of the few things that did bother me in Oblivion - in both the Fighters and Mages guilds you were immediately the member responsible for the lives of teammates and the only one capable of handling any tasks. Meanwhile everyone else just hung around the guilds constantly while you worked.

But in Skyrim it didn't take long to realize that unless they were on a mission with you, they never left; which kind of made it feel less realistic. I do think they did a better job of sending them out than was done in Oblivion though; and in making them believable as a fighting guild because they actually could fight well.


But along these lines - one thing that happened in Fallout 3 really struck me as solid gold; that I wish I saw more in these guilds in TES games:

In Fallout 3 the last time I played; I was out in the Wasteland and suddenly saw a guy fighting a Deathclaw. Before I could step up and help, the guy killed the Deathclaw and then berated me for not helping him. It was one of the guys from Reilly's Rangers; he handed me some ammo and said Reilly was worried I might need ammo because I hadn't checked in for a while. She sent him to find me and see if I needed help.

Now to me, that really felt like being part of a team. And to actually follow up after the quest was competed - and outside the Ranger Compound - that just floored me. To me, that was one of the amazingly great things about Fallout 3.

It would be awesome to see little touches like that added to the game; or to have other guild members randomly spawn near where you are so you come across them fighting and can step in and help them, etc. I mean, they are essential, so it couldn't hurt to just see them out doing something every now and then.

Well the Companions do actually get out and about. You normally first meet them at the farm on the way to Whiterun, where they kill a giant just before you can do anything to help. Then you'll sometimes meet a group out hunting, and I've often had them intercept a Sabre Cat that wanted to kill my character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0xIkDXZpwI








I knew about the giant incident because that is how I originally learned about the Companions, but - never have run across them other than that out in the field or had them come to my aid. That is awesome!

They're not intentionally coming to the character's aid, just hunting the same cat that was attacking.

See "Companions Hunting" on this page. where it's implied that you help them instead.

Loved the exploding chickens!






Strictly speaking this is true, but it only happens before Take Up Arms, which begins the second you first talk to Kodlak (meaning at a time when you aren't yet a member and don't even know the Companions), or after Glory of the Dead, when you are the Harbinger and you can get most of them to come out and adventure with you as a follower. That can turn out to be a very long gap depending on how you play. I'd like to see them out completing contracts at the same time that I'm completing them. I'd also like to see them fail at completing a contract that I am then sent out to complete for them. That would go a long way toward explaining how I can come through the door and get initiated into the circle after one radiant quest and one fetch quest.

A lot of good opinions and viewpoints here.

My new opinion (after dwelling on this subject on and off today) is that Bethesda added the shopkeeper bullying because they were sick of hearing "generic". You know ... that's one of the huge complaints about TES 4: "generic" this, "generic" that. The dungeons are generic, the questlines are generic, the landscape is generic, etc. So they listened to this, and decided to throw some twists in certain questlines, to make them not so .. well you know, the "G" word.

Still bugs me, the shopkeeper-bullying bit, and it bugged The Mighty Khahkhayre, my one character who decided to see what the Ratway is all about. And HE was a A-hole, a literal doochebag, my rudest character ever. So if it bugged him wow...

That being said, I've got a couple good friends who swear TG is one of the better questlines in Skyrim, once we get past the shopkeeper-bullying part, and so one of these days I'm going to slog through it. My character idea (Bjorn Tubewyyld) is going to be sort of like a Hell's Angel, come to life in Skyrim. Hell's Angels do have sort of a code of honor, which means they won't just go beating up innocents, so Bjorn will actually be worse than a Hell's Angel.

I'll let you all know how things transpire, whenever I decide to do TG.

I love that, I'll give Bethesda kudos for that! Thanks for telling me about it, I didn't know!














I'll really be interested in hearing about how the questline plays out, if you are ever able to get down to some genuine important thievery or if the whole questline is all about doing swarmy things for Mavis Black Briar till she makes you head of the guild.

That's what makes the TG stand out. The first half, you're working for Maven, and then you find out the truth, and the second half is working against her. And then it stops without resolution, with Maven still there and the Guild in limbo. Thievery is a background thing, and it's all about the Maven/Mercer/Karliah story, in which Mercer does all the actual stealing! You're not even Guildmaster at that point, if you haven't done enough radiant quests by that time.

You're either going to love how different that is, or hate it for the same reasons.

Roughing up shopkeepers aside, one of my biggest gripes against the TG questline in Skyrim is that there is no sneaking required. The questline is a bunch of dungeon crawls. In some you can sneak around people in places. But you still end up having to fight enemies in other areas of the same dungeon. In the end you saddled with NPCs who are just so inept at stealth that they insure that you have to fight it out in every room. It is a stark contrast to Oblivion, where you were often given strict orders by the Grey Fox that no killing is allowed in many missions. Forcing you to use stealth instead.

All that could have been misc quests for Riften itself instead of usurping the Thieves Guild questline for it, since it shoves what the guild is supposed to be all about (thievery) into the background.








Agreed 100%.

Well, in the Oblivion quest line you were supposed to think you were doing regular guild work until it turns out that the Grey Fox has a personal motive.

In the Skyrim one, you can do the Goldenglow quest by stealth, but from there on they want you to understand it's not thief work, it's Maven work, or later anti-Maven work. All the thievery is moved into the radiant and reputation quests, which do work on a stealth and no killing basis. Brynjolf telling you early on that the Thieves Guild regards killing as bad for business is supposed to be your first clue when the jobs don't match up to that.

Goldenglow was my favorite quest in the Sky TG questline, because I was able to sneak through most of it. But only most. There are a few parts were you cannot sneak your way past the certain guards, because they are looking straight at the safe you have to crack, and they never turn away. Then at the end no matter how stealthy you are the owner forces a dialogue onto you, again no matter how stealthy you try to be.

But all those quests were stilll stealthy/no killing; and you were still stealing something, it was still in line with the guild and integral to the guild actually. It was for the guild's ongoing concern, and so future Gray Foxes didn't have to be stricken into obscurity. The only one that was actually personal was the wedding ring, and that is when he hands the cowl and guild over to you and becomes the Count he used to be, so it is a valid undertaking for wrapping up the questline.

Imho, the "Ultimate Heist" was the greatest quest of all, sneaking past the guards in the Castle to set the timer; and even though there was that dungeon crawl, it was an exceptional one. Slipping through the barracks where the guards were sleeping and eating; past the Blind monks and Mages dorms and Evangeline Beanique - and Ocato - and that fantastic fall. That quest was epic!

And throughout that whole questline, I always felt like I was an important cog in an organization of elite thieves; not like criminal scum; which is how the Skyrim questline left me feeling. And it had an outcome that benefited me in the end; which it doesn't sound like the Skyrim one did; though to be honest I've never finished it, so don't really know.








I did that one, and ran out of invisibility potions. But yeah, the guy talking to me made me jump out of my skin, lol.

Renee, it sounds like Claire’s team is fun to watch in action. When I play Abiene the healer she usually has Jerric up front in Lydia’s role with Lil and/or Darnand shooting into the fray, so just keeping Jerric healed up is a full-time job. Dawnguard is fun for a Restorationist, since the sun spells actually do some damage.

I like the idea of Claire as a battle-healer in the war. Seems to suit her better than wading in and killing everybody. One thing I’ve learned from ESO, everyone fights harder when there’s a healer at their back. Without a good RP purpose the whole war thing would be a grind. I hope this fits her.


As far as the Thieves Guild questline, I didn’t like it until I had a character whose stealth skills were their focus. In Goldenglow I felt like a badass shooting an arrow to distract that one guard and never being spotted by the mercenaries. The elf can be persuaded to hand his key over for a quiet escape, at least until the hives go up in flames. By the time they were doing Karliah’s quests even heavy-foot Brynjolf had high enough sneak through my character’s higher level to get by most of the Falmer and chaurus bugs.

In Taking Care of Business (the TG quest with an option to brawl the shopkeepers) I always assumed the targets had decided not to pay their protection money. There are sneaky ways to get them to pay without brawling them for characters who are not thugs. I like that the Thieves Guild questline starts out with an unsavory bit of organized crime business. After all thieves are people who steal things from other people, which generally is not very nice.

I like ghastley’s idea of a short list of Companion Hired Muscle targets. Getting a contract to beat up your spouse strains credulity.

I see groups of Companions out in random world events pretty regularly. Even Skjor in the pre-patch days would turn up dead with his group! It’s neat to fight with them for the two seconds it takes to kill whatever they were after. Nowdays I use a mod to slow down the Companion questline so that I’m not Harbinger in three days. Most of my Companions will never learn about the Hircine business. They just do the odd job and occasionally get my favorite greeting, “Hail, Companion.”

Dammit it, Renee! You got me again!


One thing I enjoyed about Oblivion’s TG was that you had to seek them out. If you weren’t at a certain place at a certain hour... no guild. That’s the way thieves should work! In Skyrim Brynjolf acts too much like the adoring fan in the sense that he’s on top of you almost as soon as you enter Riften. It’s unseemly for a guild that prides itself on ‘shadow hide you’ to approach a complete stranger in broad daylight and say ‘steal this ring for me... right now,’ and it breaks immersion for me to such an extent that they are never quite able to reclaim it over the entire quest line.

That said, I do like the subtext that Brynjolf’s character plays to all the time. The first time you find your way to the Flagon he’s talking to Vekel about you. It’s pretty obvious that he considers you a cut above the usual potential thief that you see the guards pincushioning all the time. It makes more sense then for you to be called upon to do the most difficult jobs for the guild (not to mention the underlying implication that Mercer would just as soon see you killed on one of these jobs). It also makes sense that Delvin and Vex would take advantage by sending you around to do all the leg work to make the guild great again. Those things make the TG work better than, say, the Companions (where you are initiated into the Circle almost faster than you can claim a bed in the common room), or the College of Winterhold (where you are immediately sent on the most dangerous missions before you even know who your fellow apprentices are).




I would have loved to see that!

Fuzz (Fluffie's sister is getting her own run-through) just went to join the College of Winterhold to help advance her conjuration. Even after all the discussion of the companions, I wasn't expecting Ria and Vilkas with a Snowy Sabre Cat. I thought they just hunted the regular ones. We met them while taking the back route to Winterhold through Wayward Pass.

I should have had her try taking the Wagon through the pass, but there's no real trails on the North side, so we didn't.

In no particular order, Claire Voyance has...

...returned to Whiterun.

...finished fixing up Breezehome with a child's bedroom.

...adopted Lucia.

...decided to head off toward Karwathstan to recruit a special, lost member of Dawnguard back to service, but stopped in Rorikstead to hire Erik the Slayer, first.

So now her crew includes Erik, Aela the Huntress, and Lydia. Yah!


Grits: Yes, I can imagine a dedicated healer in TESO would be a great person to have around. It certainly is a different perspective (RP wise) that's for sure.

Destri: Bjorn Tubewyyld!!!!!!!

Do you know if DG members are randomly placed on the map or they always spawn at specific locations? Because I don't recall any member being recruited at Karthwasten.

Lopov, I do know that Sorine and the Priest of Arkay always spawn at predetermined points, and that Gunmar spawns at random locations. Last play of the DG, Buffy had to go to Solstheim to find him.

Jo'Bashi has been re-born for the umpteenth time, but this time he's been able to continue beyond building the wagon, and having the house rebuilt. I'm playing him as a "not allowed in cities" Khajiit, so he won't do quests that break that limitation.

The wainwright's house has a grindstone, and he's improved his steel mace a couple of times, but there's no armourer workbench, so he's been grabbing upgrades from bandit bosses as he goes. Right now, he has the late Yamarz's gear, after helping out the Orcs at Largashbur. He's just built a stronghold (with an armourer workbench) so things are starting to change. His mace is now an enchanted Orcish one, which he can't yet temper, but he's been able to crank up the Orcish plate a bit.

There's a patch of level ground just outside Greenspring where he can park the wagon, and it's being used for storage more than anything. He may use it more once it has a roof. Sleeping in the back is more comfortable than on the ground, but he'd appreciate some cover when it snows or rains.

We're still waiting for the thugs from the Cyrodiil guild. I may have the conditions wrong, or it could just the random percent being fickle. Both show as "failed conditions" in the SM log.

That sounds interesting, having somebody who never enters towns / villages. I've never been able to do this yet.

Turdas, Midyear 18, 4th Era 202: Claire Voyance is off to Fort Kastav, with her noisy group of followers traveling with her. Looking forward to a rumble with some Stormies, yah!

I'm not taking it that far! It's just the walled cities - Markarth, Solitude, Riften, Whiterun and Windhelm that exclude the Khajiit. But it rules out the main quest, the Civil War, and the Thieves Guild.

It was horrifying. He was dead with head slack and eyes closed usually buried to his waist sticking straight up out of the ground, and sometimes naked! And while creeped out by dead naked Skjor you had to fight some damned bandits or animals!

Renee, Claire has a marvelous team. That sounds like great fun! Congratulations to Claire and Lucia on becoming a family.

ghastley, I’m interested to hear where the thugs finally show up. I had been wondering if Greenspring Stronghold would be reachable by wagon! Dar-Ma has developed an interest in trading with the orcs. But first she has a den of her own to build, as soon as she meets the courier.

SPEW!

Claire Voyance is on her way to Riften now. There are three quests she can advance here: Dawnguard, some sort of Mara quest, and she'll also receive her next assignment, to see what to do about the Stormcloaks next. General Tullius was pleased. He gave Claire some ebony armor for her success at Fort Kastav, but she doesn't like heavy pieces too much (except boots and gauntlets sometimes) so she gave this armor to Lydia.

"Honor to you, my thane."

Yeah. There ya go, Lydia. Thanks for all the good work, keep it up.

I am going to switch to Master Baytor's game for awhile. Time to be evil. I love Claire, but I can only play goody 2 shoes for so long.... plus, Claire never goes dungeon-diving.

See, Lucius also gave Ebony Armor to Lydia. Not from Tullius, though, and to be honest, I don't recall anymore where he got it.

Do you have MB's game still on XBox or do you plan to recreate him on PC?

Wow, Lydia must look gorgeous in ebony armor. Yay for the imminent return of Master Baytor!

Lopov: I am playing Baytor's game on PC now. I couldn't stand the near-daily dragon attacks on Xbox, that [censored] got old quick. What I"m doing is looking through all his old journal updates (the ones I wrote a couple years ago) and following his footsteps as best I can.

Grits: Yes, Lydia looks awesome in ebony, which complements her raven-colored hair.

Middas, 12:48 PM, 10th of Heartfire 4E 201

Master Baytor has made it into the Thalmor Embassy, and is going to be staying here for awhile, I suppose. I can't find anything else for him to do (questwise) even through mods. Notice Boards won't really work for him; he's supposed to be some sort of official after all. He'll get lost in bureaucratic stuff up in the embassy, and until I learn how to make quests, he's going to be stuck here. Oh well.

On the other hand, I've found some cool quest mods for Claire's game, including some sort of Vigilant mod, and another one called Path of the Divine?. . So, time for more Claire. Claire is also going to continue Civil War stuff too.

Renee, that mod looks like it has a lot for Claire to do. Excellent find!

HEY GUYS! I disappeared again. I appear to have the worst luck!

My old computer decided to break down on me with no warning, so I've had pretty much zero access to Skyrim or anything.

BUT I have a new one now... one with an AMAZING graphics card! It's a gaming computer with the latest Nvidia 780 card... so my game is looking pretty good!

As is Lissa

I will be more active now. Surely something else can't go wrong? haha

Wow, I wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers, that's for sure!

Welcome back, Rihanae and glad you've got yourself a nice new gaming 'puter. Lissa is indeed looking wonderful!

WOO HOO! Welcome back Rihanae! She looks gorgeous!, so do the other girls you've made there!

Welcome back, Rihanae! It’s great to see you. Lissa is looking beautiful as ever. Congrats on your new computer!

Aww thanks everyone! I'm currently going through and experimenting with a few texture mods and ENB's to add a bit more depth and beauty to my game haha.

I am so super happy with High Resolouton Lissa! She actually looks the age she is supposed to be, and not a 40 year old like vanilla skyrim liked her to be haha

That is exactly the first thing that totally turned me off of Skyrim = making all the women old and ugly. I would never have played the game again if it hadn't been for SubRosa showing me which mods to use and how to install them in the right order. That saved the game for me; I could never thank her enough for that.

Turdas, 3:36 PM, Sun's Height 2, 4th Era 202

Claire Voyance is moseying around Solitude today. Quite a lazy day. All her smithing is done (did that yesterday), she has even made a new set of armor for her new Imperial soldier companion, whose name I'm forgetting at the moment. Funny name though, of course. Right now it is Claire, Lydia, Aela the Huntress, and this new guy. Imperial soldier guy.

The lady who runs Bits & Pieces hasn't got any gold to buy stuff with, so Claire has to wait an entire, unseasonably warm day here in Solitude. She will leave Solitude on Fredas, no matter what. She just picked up a bounty letter (Notice Board mod) to rescue a citizen from Lost Knife Hideout, and she's all about that right now. After this is done, she'll head toward Eastmarch, where her services as a nurse are wanted on whatever next battlefield the Imperials are planning to attack.

But for now, she's enjoying some downtime in Solitude. She's in Hall of the Dead, meditating near Arkay's altar. This is not very exciting to me, so I'm just letting her sit there (in real-time) until she's ready for some dumbed-down action again.


Yeah, was wondering what happened to you! :hugs: Welcome back, you and Lissa.

Uber Knees maybe?